Language Log

In the last few years I've noticed a number of apps that can be used to figure out the proper terms to refer to your relations in Chinese.  Of course, this is a problem in all languages.  For example, who is your "second cousin twice removed"?  Some people care about these things and are good at figuring them out.  For Chinese, these are particularly important matters, but younger generations are becoming increasingly ill adept at using the correct, precise terms of address.  Hence the felt need for (digital) tools to assist one in determining the proper address for your relatives.

For example, what do I call "wǒ de māmā de dìdì de nǚ'ér 我的媽媽的弟弟的女兒" (my mother's younger brother's daughter")?  Answer:  she is my "jiù biǎojiě/jiù biǎomèi 舅表姐／舅表妹", depending on whether she is older or younger than me.

[This is a guest post by Penglin Wang]

            Identification of the Xiongnu word ninghu (寧胡) as meaning ‘six’ in the phrase ninghu yanshi ‘the sixth consort’ (Wang 2024) and its connection with Jurchen ninggu (寧谷) and Manchu ninggun ‘six’ has opened up the possibility for thinking about the Xiongnu official title danghu (當戶) in relation to Jurchen tanggu (倘古) and Manchu tanggū ‘hundred’. Xiongnu used gradient decimal numerals as the echelons for its military and administrative organization, in which a century stands between a decad tier and a chiliad tier and is commanded by a centurion. Presumably, the centurion was gradually generalized as an official in addition to their regular low-ranking position and hence promoted to a mid and mid-high rank bearing the prefix da (大) ‘grand’.

            Chinese records may serve to illustrate where the Xiongnu official titles grand danghu and danghu fit in the government system. According to Shiji (110.2890f), there are wise kings of the left and right, guli (谷蠡) kings of the left and right, grand generals of the left and right, grand commandants of the left and right, grand danghu of the left and right, and gudu (骨都) marquises of the left and right; From wise kings of the left and right down to danghu, the big one is ten thousand horsemen, the small ones are several chiliads; All the twenty-four chiefs have their own chiliad chiefs, century chiefs, decad chiefs, small kings, ministers, commandants, danghu, qiequ (且渠) and the like. Having paid attention to the title danghu used in Hanshu, the ancient commentators such as Yan Shigu (顏師古 581-645, Hanshu 8.266, 17.650) and Meng Kang (孟康 Hanshu 8.271) living in the third century were united in their opinion that danghu and danghu of the left and right were Xiongnu official titles.

imgur,  "On forms of address for non-binaries", by apolloendymion:

Randy Alexander reports that during a guitar lesson, he asked his student:

Māmā de dìdi de nǚér shì biǎomèi ma？

妈妈的弟弟的女儿是表妹吗？

"Is your mother's younger brother's daughter your younger maternal female cousin?"

The student replied:

wǒyě bútài qīngchǔ děngyíxià

我也不太清楚等一下

"I don't quite know either, wait a minute."

A Russian friend of mine told me that "Terrible" is a common, well nigh universal, mistranslation for the nickname of Ivan IV Vasilyevich (Russian: Иван Васильевич; 25 August 1530 – 28 March [O.S. 18 March] 1584).  He says that a closer translation would be "Enraged".

The English word terrible is usually used to translate the Russian word Грозный (grozny) in Ivan's nickname, but this is a somewhat archaic translation. The Russian word Грозный reflects the older English usage of terrible as in "inspiring fear or terror; dangerous; powerful" (i.e., similar to modern English terrifying). It does not convey the more modern connotations of English terrible such as "defective" or "evil". Vladimir Dal defines grozny specifically in archaic usage and as an epithet for tsars: "courageous, magnificent, magisterial and keeping enemies in fear, but people in obedience". Other translations have also been suggested by modern scholars, including formidable.

(source)

There are many different subfields in Chinese Studies:  religion (Buddhism, Daoism, Islam…), art history, archeology, anthropology, language, literature, linguistics, esthetics, philosophy, economics, ethnology, and so forth.  Each of these subfields requires specialized knowledge and command of the requisite terminology.  One cannot expect a generalist to be adequately equipped to deal with all of them.

From Pamela Crossley:

Just read again Chao Wu’s perplexing post on An early fourth century AD historical puzzle involving a Caucasian people in North China. it mentions “pugu” as “a Hu title.”  This made me wonder about possible connection of “pugu” (however it was originally pronounced) and related series of titles boga / bojilie / beyile, beg / begler, boyar, etc., but can’t see this having been done on the site.  Not being a linguist, I can only express curiosity. but I wonder if “pugu” is an early citation of these medieval Eurasian titles.

[The following is a guest post by John Mock.  I am impressed by how much detailed scholarship (although perhaps not always of great precision and rigor) on such an esoteric matter as that discussed herein already existed in the 18th and 19th centuries.]

John Biddulph in his book Tribes of the Hindoo Koosh (Calcutta: Office of the Superintendent of Government Printing, 1880), p. 24, wrote:

I have been told by a Nepalese gentleman that Thum is a Chinese title, meaning Governor, and that it is used in a reduplicated form Thum Thum, to signify a Governor General. [footnote: It is perhaps a corruption of the word Tung, which appears in many titles. The Chinese Governor of Kashgaria is called Tsung Tung, and the officer who commands the troops is styled Tung-lung.] Its very existence in these countries, where its origin has been completely lost sight of, is curious and must be extremely ancient.

Henry H. Howorth, in his article "The Northern Frontagers of China. Part VIII. The Kirais and Prester John", Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, vol. 21 no. 2 (1889), pp. 383-5, discussing Tang relations with Uighurs, wrote:

The Chinese emperor at this time was called Tham vu tsum.", and, “During the reign of Tham yi tsum, from 860 to 874….

The old hymn and blues song of that title have been very much on my mind during the last couple of months.

George Hunt Smyttan (1856)

Forty days and forty nights
You were fasting in the wild;
Forty days and forty nights,
Tempted, and yet undefiled….

Muddy Waters (1956)

Forty days and forty nights, since my baby left this town
Sun shinin' all day long, but the rain keep falling down
She's my life I need her so, why she left I just don't know….

These are very different kinds of songs, yet they are both focused on a period of forty days and forty nights.  I've been thinking about these songs a lot in the current climate of far-reaching quarantines against the novel coronavirus epidemic centered on Wuhan, Hubei Province, China.