AI Overview: Snake River and Walla Walla
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[N.B.: If you don't have time to read through this long and complicated post, cut to the "Closing note" at the bottom.]
Lately when I do Google searches, especially on obscure and challenging subjects, AI Overview leaps into the fray and takes precedence at the very top, displacing Wikipedia down below, and even Google's own responses, which have been increasingly frequent in recent months, are pushed over to the top right.
AI Overview, on first glance, seems convenient and useful, but — when I start to dig deeper, I find that there are problems. As an example, I will give the case of the name of the Snake River, and maybe mention a few other instances of AI Overview falling short, but still being swiftly, though superficially, helpful.
I'm in Boise ID, scouting out my route westward for the next month.
As I was scrutinizing the maps, my eye kept focusing on the Tri-Cities (Pasco, Richland, and Kennewick [about which I will likely have more to say in a future communication]) area of Washington state, trying to figure out why that minor conurbation developed there in the hinterland. Finally, I realized that it's probably because of its location at the confluence of three significant rivers: the Columbia, the Yakima, and the Snake.
Then I started to think, how did the Snake get all the way over in south central Washington State, when I've been following it for hundreds of miles to the southeast in Idaho? Tracing its path, I see that "snake" is indeed an apt name for that amazing river, though it's probably not the true etymology, which I shall write about below. The Snake River twists and turns through the mountains and high plains mimicking, for me, the movements of its erstwhile namesake. It's an amazing phenomenon of nature, carving spectacular canyons and deep gorges in the land as it wends its way, leaving in its wake impressive falls and cascades.
I wanted to see if the Snake got its name from its super-sinuous movement throughout the mountainous terrain. Naturally, I looked it up on Google ("Why is it called the Snake River"), and right away up popped AI Overview:
The Snake River is named after the Shoshone people, who lived along the river's banks and used a hand sign that European explorers misinterpreted as a snake. The sign actually represented swimming fish and meant "the people who live near the river with many fish".
The Snake River has also been called by other names, including: Lewis River, Great Snake River, Shoshone River, Saptin River, and Yam-pah-pa River.
I just noticed this sentence at the bottom of the AI Overview: "Generative AI is experimental."
Contrast the AI Overview answer with this from Wikipedia:
The river's modern name comes from a misunderstanding of the Shoshone Tribal Sign in PISL [Plains Indian Sign Language]. The Plains Indians referred to the Shoshone people as "Snake People", while the Shoshone are believed to have referred to themselves as "People of the River of Many Fish". However, the Shoshone sign for "salmon" was the same or similar to the Plains Indian common sign for "snake." The English name for the river was likely derived from this interpretation of the hand gesture, although it is uncertain when the name was first used.
Not very satisfying. Wikipedia usually does a better job with its etymologies (see, e.g., the "Appendix").
While we're at it, and nothing seems very definitive yet, we'll run through some other accounts of how the Snake River got its name, especially since some of them have interesting linguistic aspects. Here, by a man who has lived the Snake for more than four decades, Dave Hansen Whitewater:
The Snake River Doesn’t Have Snakes!
Have you ever wanted to take a rafting trip on the Snake River but you were scared because of the name of the river? Have no fear! As it turns out, the Snake does not actually have any snakes in it. Why, then, is it called the Snake? While some may think that the reason it is called the Snake is because its shape has many twists and winds similar to a snake, it is actually believed to have received its name from a Native American hand symbol.
Brief History of Names of the Snake River
Throughout the years, many explorers gave different names to the Snake. In 1800, David Thompson first recorded the Native American name of the Snake as Shawpatin. Next, Lewis and Clark gave the name Lewis River or Lewis Fork in 1805. Other American explorers’ records after Lewis and Clark show a variety of names associated with the river. Various stretches of the Snake have held at least fifteen different names throughout the years. These names include the Shawpatin River, Lewis River, Mad River, Shoshone River, and Saptin River. It wasn’t until the year 1912 that the United States Geographic Board made official the name, “The Snake River.”
The Snake River Got It’s Name From a Misinterpretation
Over 11,000 years ago, the Snake was a vital source of life for the Native Americans, specifically the Shoshones, that were living along the banks of the river. While they weren’t Snake River rafting as we are today, the Snake was very important to them primarily because of the salmon from the Pacific Ocean. The Snake was given its present day name when it was derived from an S-shaped hand sign made by the Native American tribe, the Shoshones. European explorers misinterpreted this hand sign representing swimming fish as a snake. This hand sign is now thought to have truly meant, “the people who live near the river with many fish.”
Still a lot of surmises, so now we turn to the Idaho State Historical Society, whose Reference Series, Number 38 (February 1964) begins thus:
The Snake River is named for the Snake Indians, through whose country the greater part of the river flows. The Indians, in turn, were named "Snake" by their Plains neighbors to the east, possibly because they reputedly used snake heads painted on sticks to terrify their Plains enemies. (At least the Blackfeet on upper Bow River reported finding such Shoshoni snake sticks in about 1784.) Or possibly the sign employed to designate the Snake Indians in conventionalized sign language—a snake-like motion—may have suggested the name to the Plains Indian. In any event, the name used to identify the Snake Indians in various Plains Siouan languages was the word for snake or rattlesnake. The French picked up the name from the Plains Indians, and the British, in turn, translated it from the French.
Although it comes from the Idaho State Historical Society, this convoluted explanation is not satisfying to me.
A Tri-Cities radio station (10/10/23) has a record of an earlier version of Wikipedia that gives an even more whimsical explanation of the Shoshone sign language for the river:
It would have been so much more helpful if the many European explorers who passed through this region had asked the Shoshone or other tribes who lived along the Snake how they said its name in their spoken language. As a matter of fact, we already apparently do have this datum, and that is David Thompson's 1800 [more likely 1811 — see below] "Shawpatin" (probable contraction "Saptin")*. I put it as a task for Native American language specialists to interpret what that means (but see the Appendix).
Enough for the Snake River (for now; I may find additional information as I continue to follow its serpentine path through the mountains).
My brother and his partner were blessed to have lived for years not far from the Tri-Cities area in Walla Walla. Let's see what AI Overview has to say about the origin of its unusual-sounding name:
The name "Walla Walla" comes from a Nez Perce word that means "place of many waters" or "running waters":
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- Place of many waters: The original settlement was located at the junction of the Snake and Columbia rivers.
- Running waters: The name may refer to the place where a small stream flows into a larger one, such as the convergence of Mill and Dry creeks in the Walla Walla Valley.
- Place of many waters: The original settlement was located at the junction of the Snake and Columbia rivers.
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- Walatsa: A Nez Perce and Cayuse word that means "running".
- Walatsa: A Nez Perce and Cayuse word that means "running".
Every time I look up "Walla Walla" on Google –> AI Overview, I get slightly different answers, so I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the one given above.
On November 17, 1859, Walla Walla County commissioners name the town that has grown up around the U.S. military Fort Walla Walla. They elect to name the town Walla Walla. The town begins with a rich history, which includes Native North Americans, fur traders, missionaries, soldiers, and pioneers. Walla Walla's earliest businesses are raising cattle and supplying the fort. The town will be incorporated and become the county seat in 1862. A gold rush followed by a growing agricultural industry will help Walla Walla become the largest city in Washington Territory by 1880. During the twentieth century, Walla Walla will continue to develop as an agricultural center for various crops, including wheat, onions, apples, peas, and wine grapes.
The Time before the Town
“Walla Walla” was a Nez Perce name given to one of the indigenous groups who lived in what is now the Walla Walla Valley. The name means “running waters” or, more specifically, the place where a small stream runs into a larger one. A number of rivers flow across the valley into the Walla Walla River and join the Columbia River. In addition to the Walla Wallas, native North American groups who lived in this area included the Nez Perce, the Cayuses, and Umatillas. In 1806, the Lewis and Clark expedition camped near the mouth of the “Wallahwollah river” on the Columbia and encountered the “honest and friendly … Wallah wallahs.”
I do scores, maybe hundreds, of Google searches every day. It is increasingly evident that AI Overview is doing more and more of the heavy lifting in replying to such routine searches, but also daring to take on esoteric topics as well. When responding to my queries, AI Overview does something cute before spewing out its responses — a flashing nanosecond whirl akin to cogitation, while formulating (putting / pulling together) what it is going to tell me. A cosmic dance. Utterly fascinating.
Closing note
The 2024 Nobel Prize in Physics (mind you!) went to two scientists, John J Hopfield (a physicist most widely known for his study of associative neural networks in 1982) and Geoffrey E Hinton (computer scientist, cognitive scientist, cognitive psychologist, known for his work on artificial neural networks which earned him the title as the "Godfather of AI"), for foundational discoveries and inventions that enable machine learning with artificial neural networks. The laureates themselves were astonished to hear the news that they were the recipients of the Nobel Prize in Physics. That tells you something about where we're headed.
Selected readings
- "The unreasonable hilarity of recurrent neural networks" (5/21/17)
- "Generative linguistics and neural networks at 60" (11/13/17)
- "AI encroachments" (7/21/23)
Appendix
Here, on "Sahaptin language (Name)", is a good example of Wikipedia showing its stuff (with plenty of footnotes [omitted from this post]).
Sahaptin is typically known as Ichiskiin in its various dialects. In the Yakama dialect, it is called Ichishkíin Sɨ́nwit, spelled variously Ichishkíin, Íchishkin, Íchishkink, or Chishkíin. In the Umatilla dialect, it is called Čiškíin or Ičiškíin.
The words Sahaptin, Shahaptin, and Sahaptian are derived from the Columbia-Moses name for the Nez Perce, sħáptənəxʷ. Cognates appear in other Interior Salishan languages, such as Okanagan sʕaptnx 'Nez Perce' or Spokane saʕáptni 'Nez Perce', indictating the ancient age of the ethnonym. The name Sahaptin has also been spelled "Shahaptin", "Sahapten", "Shahaptian", and "Shawpatin".
The first usage of the word "Sahaptin" dates to 1811, in the journal of fur trader David Thompson, who wrote of the "Chief of all the Shawpatin Tribes", referring to the Nez Perce. At the time, "Sahaptin" (and variants) was used to refer to the Nez Perce, while "Walla Walla" was used to refer to the Sahaptin-speaking peoples. Alexander Ross visited a large camp on the Walla Walla River later that year, identifying "the Walla-Wallas, the Shaw Haptens, and the Cajouses". In 1844, Horatio Hale wrote of the "Sahaptin or Nez-Perces" language and the "Walawala" language. At the same time, the Snake River was also sometimes called the Sahaptin River, because it led from the Columbia River to the country of the Nez Perce.
In the 1960s, the name "Sahaptin" was used by linguists, but it was rare for Sahaptin speakers to even be aware of the term. Most speakers used the terms Ichishkínk (Yakama) or Chishkín (Walla Walla and Umatilla), which mean literally "in this way/manner"
cameron said,
October 10, 2024 @ 2:11 pm
The Snake River is also associated with the Snake River massacre, one of the worst instances of anti-Chinese violence in American history
AntC said,
October 11, 2024 @ 3:25 am
Lately when I do Google searches, …
(Not really the topic, I know, but …)
Over the past 4 months-ish Google search has got a lot worse. Usually specifying obscure search terms was effective in cutting out irrelevant nonsense. Nowadays the nonsense appears _first_ and I need to scroll through pages of it to get something close to what I asked for. Enclosing critical terms in double-quotes seems no longer effective.
The nonsense is of course mostly advertising. Ask for a cheap backpackers in the central city; get a bunch of expensive resorts on the beach 3 hours flight away.
AntC said,
October 11, 2024 @ 3:53 am
The 2024 Nobel Prize in Physics (mind you!) went to two [computer] scientists, [for work published decades ago] … The laureates themselves were astonished to hear the news …
I hope they were also embarrassed.
Sabine Hossenfelder, an actual published Physicist, is ropable. Just because computers these days have exotic metals/semiconductors inside them does not make this Physics. “Computer Science is no more about computers than Astronomy is about telescopes.” Edsger W. Dijkstra
Victor Mair said,
October 11, 2024 @ 5:03 am
@AntC
Your link to "ropable" didn't work, so I did my own Google search, and here's what I got immediately, from AI Overview, naturalllY:
=====
Ropeable" is an informal adjective that has two meanings:
Capable of being roped
Angry, wild, or intractable
The second meaning is an Australian and New Zealand slang term that originated in the 1870s. It's a classic Australian term that literally means "fit to be tied".
=====
/df said,
October 11, 2024 @ 8:08 am
The award to Hopfield and Hinton was justified mostly because of the recent and potential application of their discoveries "[founded on] physical science" as tools for physicists (and unspoken, because no actual physics had been done that was more worthy of a prize).
Leaving that aside, what happened to the "é" of Nez Percé, discarded unlike, say, that of fiancé? Yet right by the Snake River the second syllable of Boise is well voiced, even without the benefit of accent aigu.
AntC said,
October 11, 2024 @ 9:51 am
Thank you Prof Mair. My attempted link was to Ms. Hossenfelder's video. YouTube "The 2024 Nobel Prize in Physics Did Not Go To Physics …". I won't try linking again; there seem to be weird chars in the url.
'Rop(e)able' I was going to leave to the resourcefulness of LLogers. Again, Google whatever falls short. I go straight to wiktionary: it's sense 2. Orig. of a farm animal: so over-agitated as to need tying down. Much used by Fred Dagg.
AntC said,
October 12, 2024 @ 11:48 pm
Why Google search is falling apart seems to confirm my impressions. In particular:
At 2:20 product-related searches (which was my example above, in effect) are now entirely focused on driving 'customers' to advertisers that pay Google, irrespective of whether they actually offer the product. Contrast Prof Mair's queries are merely asking for information. Nevertheless Google will promote its own answers over the correct or most up to date.
To be fair, advertisers are getting smarter at gaming the algorithm to attract eyeballs, which merely promotes their ranking. They don't care about negative reactions — indeed that promotes them more: Google has no concept that this alleged match is a downright lie. The eyeballs are the product, not the customer.
Vampyricon said,
October 15, 2024 @ 2:02 pm
@/df:
The Nobel had long been awarded for work done long ago. I don't see why they couldn't dig through the archives for something worthier.