All-purpose word for "glamorous woman"
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The PRC authorities have always policed human behavior and thought, but especially during the last half year or so and particularly toward young people, for whatever reason, they have been coming on more gangbusters than usual.
First they went after the phenomenon of tǎngpíng 躺平 ("lying flat"), i.e., those who chose to opt out of the cutthroat rat race. Then they chastised niángpào 娘炮 ("effeminate men"), i.e., girlie boys and men. The social minders even drew a bead on jīngfēn 精芬 for socially averse millennials who identified themselves as spiritually Finnish. These were serious efforts to squelch such unwanted tendencies in the population. Now they have taken quite a different turn and are aiming at an altogether different target: beautiful women. Strange to say, they are coupling this campaign against female pulchritude with a crusade against Buddhism.
Well, it's not that strange after all, since communism has never been fond of religion, and Buddhism has often been persecuted by Chinese regimes, almost from the time of its arrival in the Middle Kingdom nearly two millennia ago. Even the combination of feminine beauty and Buddhism reveals a certain psychological fixation on the baldness and celibacy of nuns in traditional Chinese society.
The current offensive against beautiful women, especially with regard to their Buddhist devotion, is described in these two articles:
"A Chinese Word Describing ‘Beautiful Women’ Is Taking an Ugly Turn: Certain terms have been distorted to fit a sexist narrative and insult young women online, experts say." By Zhang Wanqing, Sixth Tone (10/14/21)
Sixth Tone purports to be an objective, balanced journalistic outlet, but it always has a smoothly nuanced agenda. Read the first couple of paragraphs of the first article and judge for yourself:
A woman is praying to a Buddha statue. Another one has parts of the Buddhist scriptures painted on her nails. A third sits writing religious texts but in the wrong sequence.
The women are all so-called online influencers, part of the growing community using Buddhism to boost their social media rankings. Known as foyuan* — which loosely translates to “female Buddhist socialite” in English — the women usually post photos, often in seductive poses and sometimes wearing revealing outfits, with some hoping to profit from advertisements and sell products related to Buddhist culture.
[*VHM: fóyuàn 佛媛 ("Buddhist socialite")]
From the second article:
In the wake of the female Buddhist socialite trend, China’s influential state media outlets have banded together to denounce such behaviors. A commentary published by state broadcaster China Central Television on Thursday said the Buddhist socialites have not only “destroyed the serious atmosphere in religious places,” but are also suspected of breaking regulations that ban commercial promotion in the name of religion.
“While seemingly standing aloof from the world, they are in essence materialistic,” the commentary said. “Buddha, for them, only means a persona and a tool to attract traffic and seize profit.”
The Workers’ Daily newspaper, which is backed by the All-China Federation of Trade Unions, also slammed the online trend, saying, “A fox cannot hide its tail by wearing a kasaya,” referring to the robe worn by Buddhist monks and nuns.
[*VHM — There are many medieval Buddhist tales of fox spirits seducing supposedly innocent young men who should rather be studying for the civil service examinations. See here and here.]
Read between the lines. It seems that the overall point of view of the anti-beauty media mavens is not at all disinterested, but has a strongly anti-Buddhist ax to grind.
The focus of the anti-beauty rhetoric is concentrated in a single word that, until recently, was of only moderate frequency (#4078 out of 9933): yuàn 媛 ("beauty; glamorous woman"). The animus of the movement against feminine beauty is exposed through the locutions with which it is associated:
míngyuàn 名媛 ("female celebrity") — a long-standing term
bìngyuàn 病媛 ("bedridden beauty") — this and the following terms have only recently become popular
líyuàn 离媛 ("socialite divorcee")
yīyuàn 医媛 ("pretty doctor")
xuéyuàn 学媛 ("studious beauty")
zhījiàoyuàn 支教媛 ("volunteer socialite")
yìshùyuàn 艺术媛 ("artistic beauty")
The articles also take into account the innate misogynism of the Chinese script, a topic which has been well covered by David Moser and others (see "Suggested readings" below). One thing is certain: the present wave of anti-beauty / Buddhism fits into a pattern of communist puritanism, as adumbrated at the beginning of this post.
Selected readings
- "Misogyny as reflected in Chinese characters" (12/25/15)
- "Women's words" (2/2/16)
- "This Little Red Book Confronts Sexism in the Chinese Language: By adapting the female radical (女) in 30 compound Chinese characters, designers have developed a new vernacular of feminist-leaning words and phrases", by Liz Stinson, Wired (2/1/16)
- "'Lying flat' and 'Involution': passive-aggressive resistance" (6/4/21)
- "'Lying flat' and 'Buddha whatever' (part 2)" (6/24/21) — notice the anti-Buddhist aspect of this government / media discourse
- "Girlie men in the PRC" (9/5/21)
- "Girlie men in the PRC, part 2" (9/8/21)
- "Tribes" (3/10/15)
[h.t. Miffy Zhang]
Victor Mair said,
October 16, 2021 @ 3:48 pm
FLOTPRC Péng Lìyuàn 彭丽媛
Given name means doubly beautiful.
Jerry Packard said,
October 16, 2021 @ 6:15 pm
I would submit that any misogyny in Chinese orthography that is perceived as innate to the script would au contraire necessarily be in the eyes of the beholder.
Victor Mair said,
October 16, 2021 @ 8:34 pm
From an anonymous reader:
It is quite dismaying to see the attribute of yuàn 媛 degenerated from xiányuàn 賢媛 ("virtuous and comely woman"), as in Shìshuō xīnyǔ 世說新語 (A New Account of the Tales of the World [1st half of the 5th c. AD]), into all kinds of modern -yuàn 媛 ("beauties") with negative connotations. The detriment lies in the indiscriminate labelling of women associated with Buddhism once buzzwords like fóyuàn 佛媛 ("Buddhist socialite") gain currency and are officially decried, even among the Chinese people themselves.
In the case of the recent phenomenon of fóyuàn 佛媛 ("Buddhist socialite") and its purgation, I agree with you that it is part of communist puritanism, but who is entirely innocent?
だが、佛緣があれば、佛媛になってもいいと思います。
Richard Warmington said,
October 16, 2021 @ 9:03 pm
Is it Péng Lìyuàn (4th tone on the last syllable)? Or is it Péng Lìyuán, as Wikipedia says? ("Peng Liyuan (simplified Chinese: 彭丽媛; traditional Chinese: 彭麗媛; pinyin: Péng Lìyuán, …") Three Chinese speakers pronounce her name on the Forvo website: https://forvo.com/word/%E5%BD%AD%E4%B8%BD%E5%AA%9B/#zh
Victor Mair said,
October 16, 2021 @ 9:30 pm
From Wiktionary:
Pronunciation 1
Mandarin
(Pinyin): yuàn, yuán (yuan4, yuan2)
(Zhuyin): ㄩㄢˋ, ㄩㄢˊ
Cantonese (Jyutping): jyun6
Definitions
媛
beauty
Synonym: 美女 (měinǚ)
Pronunciation 2
Mandarin
(Pinyin): yuán (yuan2)
(Zhuyin): ㄩㄢˊ
Cantonese (Jyutping): wun4, jyun4
Definitions
媛
Only used in 嬋媛／婵媛.
Richard Warmington said,
October 16, 2021 @ 9:46 pm
In Pleco, their built-in dictionary "PLC" says of 媛, when pronounced yuán:
ADJECTIVE pretty [in female names]. See 嬋媛.
Here's another audio sample for 彭丽媛:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuZ7wq-4d2c
(at the 7-second mark)
Philip Taylor said,
October 17, 2021 @ 4:31 am
Sorry, "FLOTPRC" ? I assume that "PRC" is "People's Republic [of] China" but "FLOT" ?
Haamu said,
October 17, 2021 @ 9:08 am
FLOT = “First Lady of the”
More easily deciphered by Americans, perhaps, where “FLOTUS” has been in use since (per Wikipedia) 1983, but still Googleable.
Philip Taylor said,
October 17, 2021 @ 11:34 am
I did "Google" before asking, but all I found were applied occurrences and no defining occurrence. Anyhow, thank you for the clarification / explication.
Richard Warmington said,
October 17, 2021 @ 6:53 pm
Regarding 媛 in female names, and in particular, in the name of FLOTPLC 彭丽媛, the following sources indicate 2nd tone: yuán.
1) The "Berkshire Dictionary of Chinese Biography" (2016), which provides the pinyin for names throughout, mentions FLOTPLC in its article on Xi Jinping: "[Xi] is currently married to Péng Lìyuán 彭丽媛 (b. 1962), a famous singer in the People's Liberation Army."
https://www.oxfordreference.com/search?q=peng+liyuan&searchBtn=Search&isQuickSearch=true
2) ChinesePod has several sentences in dialogs in which Peng is mentioned, and in each case her name is rendered as Lìyuán, and pronounced as such by the voice actors. Here is one of the sentences, as published on the ChinesePod website:
是啊，特别是彭丽媛女士，服装也是很中国风啊。
shì a，tèbié shì Pénglìyuán nǚshì，fúzhuāng yě shì hěn Zhōngguófēng ā。
Yeah, particularly Madame Peng Liyuan and her clothes were very Chinese in style.
3) Another example: "the second [song] is performed by “彭丽媛 (Péng Lìyuán)."
https://answers.echineselearning.com/questions/2011-09/08/191521269FNFOUUWO.html
That was written by a Chinese language teacher, Jennifer Zhu:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-zhu-111aa117/?originalSubdomain=cn
4) Line Dictionary includes the following example sentence:
Péng Lìyuán sǎngyīn yīnqū shífēn kuān，chànggē néng chóu sāngè bā dù.
彭丽媛嗓音音区十分宽，唱歌能踌三个八度。
https://dict.naver.com/linedict/enzhdict/#/encn/entry/82e7977d6a2340fd86b172fcf4444f00
5) Various websites say that the female name 媛媛 is pronounced Yuányuán. For example:
a) "否则有人招呼就不知道在称呼自己.如“媛媛”,汉语拼音是yuányuán, …"
http://www.kpbgw.com/w/jnoygfjnrfoejnrrowjnrrowjeorghjgruwwjoouwm/
b) "Kui Yuanyuan (奎媛媛, Kuí Yuányuán; Pechino, 23 giugno 1981) è un'ex ginnasta cinese, …"
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kui_Yuanyuan
c) 本报北京11月19日电(记者罗京生)
中国体操队两名主力队员奎kuí媛媛yuányuán和孟菲fēi在训练中意外受伤,这为她们能否参加亚运会打上了问号。
d) The University of Iowa has a lesson which includes the following note:
媛媛 :【yuán yuán】 a female name.
https://collections.uiowa.edu/chinese/readings/beginning/b_audio/b_audio_u02/b_audio_u02_08.htm
julie lee said,
October 17, 2021 @ 8:41 pm
@Jerry Packard said:
"I would submit that any misogyny in Chinese orthography that is perceived as innate to the script would au contraire necessarily be in the eyes of the beholder.."
Jerry, sorry to disagree with you, but misogyny in Chinese characters is not just "in the eyes of the beholder"; it's a fact.
Just read or re-read
"Misogyny as reflected in Chinese characters" (Language Log12/25/15).
An infamous example of such misogyny is the character 姦 jian (in Mandarin pronunciation). It's made up of three characters meaning
"woman, female". It means "villainy, treachery". Whoever invented the character jian 姦 “villainy, treachery" was a woman-hater. A traitor, even if a male, is a hanjian 漢奸 in Chinese. (奸 is another way of writing 姦). Why designate a male traitor or villain with the female classifier 女 ? This is just one example of misogyny in Chinese characters, as pointed out by David Moser, Victor Mair, and others.
In short, I think your comment above about being "in the eyes of the beholder" is absurd.
Chris Button said,
October 18, 2021 @ 6:26 am
The original meaning of 女 might perhaps not have been "woman" but rather "slave" or someone subservient regardless of gender:
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=46987#comment-1573761
Victor Mair said,
October 18, 2021 @ 10:24 am
Regardless of what nǚ 女 might or might not have "originally" signified, for the last three millennia it has meant "woman; girl; feminine; female", and I think that even on the oracle bones there are instances where it stands in opposition to nán 男 ("male; man; son").
Victor Mair said,
October 18, 2021 @ 11:14 am
@Richard Warmington
You have done very impressive research to prove that, in actuality, the name of the FLOTPRC is spoken as Péng Lìyuán, not Péng Lìyuàn. I have confirmed this myself by asking a number of native speakers of MSM, who say that it should be Péng Lìyuán. On the other hand, they recognize that, in isolation and in the combinations (lexical items) cited in the two articles above, as well as according to reputable dictionaries, the pronunciation of 媛 is yuàn. So they themselves are a little bit puzzled why they say Péng Lìyuán instead of Péng Lìyuàn
I already cited Wiktionary in my third comment above, but zdic gives the same readings for when 媛 is to be read "yuàn" and when it is to be pronounced "yuán":
yuàn 媛 ("beauty; beautiful woman")
https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E5%AA%9B
chányuán 婵媛 ("beautiful lady; implicate; involve")
https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E5%A9%B5%E5%AA%9B
Yet you have persuasively demonstrated that 彭丽媛 is pronounced Péng Lìyuán by most speakers in real life. How to explain this discrepancy? I have given this conundrum a lot of thought and have come to the conclusion that some sort of tone sandhi is going on, viz., that there is a prohibition against (or should I say "a natural tendency to avoid"?) two successive 4th tones in realized speech. Thus canonical "Lìyuàn" would automatically shift to "Lìyuán" when pronounced aloud.
My native speaker informants agree with me and say that two successive 4th tones do not sound "right / good", so they come out instead as 4-2, not 4-4.
As I have shown in a number of posts on tone sandhi, there are many different varieties of this phenomenon in MSM. I have further shown how phonologically they may be explained as arising from physiological constraints of the vocal tract. Esthetics plays a part as well.
Try to pronounce a disyllable as 3-3; it inevitably comes out as 2-3. Try to pronounce a disyllable as 4-4; it will have a propensity to come out as 4-2.
No matter what the dictionaries may tell us, "Péng Lìyuàn" sounds dopey. "Péng Lìyuán" is easier to pronounce and sounds better.
By common agreement, lexicographers do not mark tone sandhi in dictionaries.
Chris Button said,
October 18, 2021 @ 11:30 am
@ Victor Mair
女 absolutely referred to women in the oracle bone inscriptions. It wasn't even properly/consistently distinguished from 母.
My point is that it is likely that its original referent might not have been "woman". That is evinced by its word family relationships and its graphic form.
Victor Mair said,
October 18, 2021 @ 12:16 pm
@Chris Button
How do you reconcile "女 absolutely referred to women in the oracle bone inscriptions" and "its original referent might not have been 'woman'"?
What could be more "original" than the oracle bone inscriptions?
I think I know what you're trying to say, but you have to spell it out more clearly and explicitly.
Victor Mair said,
October 18, 2021 @ 1:46 pm
From an anonymous M.A. candidate from the PRC:
That looks so interesting to me. Indeed, it turns out the ladies are not “pretending to be sick,” according to the news. A lot of them posted their evidence of illness, and what they shared on the internet before, intending to help other people who have a similar illness, rather than bragging or making money. I feel like the official authorities intend to start banning all kinds of socialites on the internet, and this is just a beginning.
Your point about the connection between anti-Buddhist and anti-beauty is enlightening. Before your article, there were only a few friends of mine telling me that they think this “病媛” ("ailing beauties") event aims to exclude women from public space or prohibit them from making money as socialites.
julie lee said,
October 18, 2021 @ 2:52 pm
@Chris Button
The character for 女 is on page 1299 of the 甲骨文字典 (Dictionary of Oracle Bone Inscriptions Characters) edited by 徐中舒(Xu Zhongshu) et al. The earliest Oracle Bone forms of the character 女 “woman; female" include the graph of a kneeling, hands-clasped in-front figure, and the same graph with two dots in the breast area to show two nipples signifying a woman's breasts. The dictionary defines both graphs (with or without the two dots for nipples) as meaning "woman, female". It gives these two types of graphs as having the same meaning "woman, female".
Needless to say, both graphs depict a servitor-figure, a figure who serves. But these earliest graphs for 女 did not mean "servant". They meant "woman, female", as the dictionary makes clear.
julie lee said,
October 18, 2021 @ 4:00 pm
Correction:
"hands-clasped-in-front figure"" should be
"hands–crossed-at-the-wrists-and-on-the-lap figure"
The earliest graph for 女 "woman, female" are abstract depictions of a subservient figure. But the dictionary gives its meaning as "woman, female", not "slave" or "servant".
The earliest graphs for this character can be seen by googling
"女 Wiktionary".
Jerry Packard said,
October 18, 2021 @ 4:05 pm
@julia lee
Thanks for replying to my post.
There is undoubtedly misogyny in the Chinese script, as your examples and many others clearly indicate. To say that it does not exist in the script would indeed be absurd. My point was that there is nothing inherent to the writing system that is misogynistic. I would claim that the misogyny is constructed by the users and is not innate to Chinese character orthography.
Chris Button said,
October 18, 2021 @ 5:15 pm
@ Julie Lee
To quote my response to Prof. Mair above:
“女 absolutely referred to women in the oracle bone inscriptions. It wasn't even properly/consistently distinguished from 母.”
@ Victor Mair
The earliest evidence we have is the oracle bone inscriptions. Evidence from the oracle bone inscriptions shows a complex writing system that must have had a predecessor. It seems likely that 女 originally represented a subservient person (e.g. a servant or slave with crossed arms on their knees) but had evolved to mean “woman” by the time of the oracle bone inscriptions.
Victor Mair said,
October 18, 2021 @ 5:31 pm
"misogyny is constructed by the users"
How else does a script get constructed?
Victor Mair said,
October 18, 2021 @ 5:34 pm
"It seems likely that 女 originally represented a subservient person (e.g. a servant or slave with crossed arms on their knees) but had evolved to mean 'woman' by the time of the oracle bone inscriptions."
Until we find that elusive "predecessor", I'll stick with the evidence drawn from the earliest attested stage of Chinese writing — the oracle bones.
Jerry Packard said,
October 18, 2021 @ 5:53 pm
" "misogyny is constructed by the users"
How else does a script get constructed? "
Yes, exactly. Devanagari is not innately misogynistic. The English and Latin scripts are not innately misogynistic. The Cherokee syllabary is not innately misogynistic.
"The articles also take into account the innate misogynism of the Chinese script…"
Any misogyny in Chinese script is not an innate property of the script.
Victor Mair said,
October 18, 2021 @ 6:00 pm
Please show us the misogyny in the Devanagari, English, and Latin SCRIPTS and in the Cherokee syllabary. You can write misogynistic sentiments, thoughts, ideas, and texts with any script, but that does not say anything about misogynistic elements of THE SCRIPT ITSELF, which David Moser, julie lee, and many others have shown repeatedly about the Chinese script.
Jerry Packard said,
October 18, 2021 @ 6:49 pm
As an example, we could say that the English written word 'hooters' contains a misogynistic element, as interpreted and exploited by the restaurant chain 'Hooters' in their signage and advertising. But of course this is not because English alphabetic orthography is inherently misogynistic – it is because of the interpretation by individual users of the script.
Victor Mair said,
October 18, 2021 @ 7:20 pm
Linguists have to distinguish between word and script. This has been a fundamental tenet of my "Language, Script, and Society in China" course for decades and in hundreds of Language Log posts.
Jerry Packard said,
October 18, 2021 @ 7:42 pm
My comment has to do explicitly with the script and not the spoken language, as a brief glance at the 'Hooters' signage demonstrates.
Chris Button said,
October 18, 2021 @ 7:51 pm
@ Victor Mair
I'm not suggesting anything radical with my "slave" comment. Takashima discusses the idea in a footnote note in this article:
"Paleography, Historical Phonology, and Historical Lexicology: “Kneeling Women with Their Wrists Crossed” and “Slaves with Their Eyes Gouged” in International Journal of Chinese Character Studies 3.1, 2020.
When you look at the evidence that we do have from the graphic form and its word family associations, it actually makes a lot of sense.
Victor Mair said,
October 18, 2021 @ 8:45 pm
@Jerry Packard
We are talking about writing systems, not writing.
Victor Mair said,
October 18, 2021 @ 11:29 pm
@Chris Button
I know that article by Takashima, and I think it is radical. Not nearly as persuasive as the traditional explanation (e.g., the one given by julie lee).
Glyph origin
Pictogram (象形): a woman with breasts kneeling or standing. In modern form turned on left side: enclosed area is remnant of left breast (character's left, depicted woman's right), while right breast has disappeared. Graphically cognate to 母 (mǔ, “mother”) [as you pointed out — here the nipples are very prominent], which has developed similarly, but also includes dots for nipples and has retained both breasts.
Etymology
From Proto-Sino-Tibetan *nja-ŋ/k (“woman”).[not slave]
(source)
Conclusion
No matter whether the character "originally" depicted a slave or a woman, it evinces servility, and it has meant "woman" since OB times.
Chris Button said,
October 19, 2021 @ 5:58 am
@ Victor Mair
Qiu Xigui in his Chinese Writing book:
"Some scholars believe that 女 originally depicted a female slave."
Granted, Qiu specifies "female" but the slave argument is by no means radical.
Alternatively, Pulleyblank in his Jiajie and Xiesheng article thinks the sense of 奴 came via 孥. That's what Ferlus follows in his article on the 女 series. Somehow we need to account for the semantics.
'm not going to cite the other word family evidence here (I alluded to the whole "irk, work" family elsewhere), but just from a graphic perspective, the idea that 女 depicts any breasts is utter nonsense. It is unequivocally a kneeling figure with its arms crossed and has nothing specifically femine about it. The addition of the dots for nipples to create 母 (which is then confused with 女) does suggest the presence of breasts to feminize the form as a result of its semantic evolution, but that comes later.
Stephen L said,
October 19, 2021 @ 9:05 am
For https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/姦#Pronunciation maybe they can reintroduce the Liushutong variant (depicted on the linked page)
Victor Mair said,
October 19, 2021 @ 9:43 am
Liushutong (compiled in Ming)
Victor Mair said,
October 19, 2021 @ 3:53 pm
@Chris Button
[Sorry I was unable to reply earlier; had to give an exam and take care of other professorial tasks.]
"Some scholars believe that 女 originally depicted a female slave."
1. Again, we have the problem of what other scholars thought and who they were.
2. Again, we have the problem of belief and supposition.
3. Again, we have the problem of how "original" "original" was and when it took place.
4. Again, we have the problem that OB 女 is still about women.
5. Again, we have the problem that this is still about subservience.
6. nú 孥 ("offspring; child; children"; can imply "wife and children") — slaves?
7. nú 奴 ("slave")
Ideogrammic compound (會意): 女 (“woman”) + 又 (“hand”) – a hand capturing and ordering a woman around. 女 (OC *naʔ, *nas) may also be phonetic.
Some oracle bone script forms (not depicted above) are pictographic (象形), showing a person (probably a woman) with hands crossed at the back, as opposed to 女 which depicts a woman clasping her hands in front of the body.
(source)
It's still about women.
8. women + subservience I don't think we have any contention over that, which is what the point of this discussion is all about.
9. "the idea that 女 depicts any breasts is utter nonsense" [VHM: emphasis added]
That's an extreme ex cathedra statement. Many scholars think otherwise. I'm not sure. Might be breasts, might not be breasts.
Reread this comment.
10. For convenience's sake.
34 OB forms for 女.
For the sake of comparison, check the Bronze forms as well.
11. Also check mǔ 母, which is obviously graphically cognate with 女 and where the nipples are clearly emphasized.
(source)
12.
女
Middle Sinitic: /ɳɨʌX/
Old Sinitic
(Baxter–Sagart): /*nraʔ/
(Zhengzhang): /*naʔ/
母
Pictogram (象形): a woman with breasts with nipples kneeling or standing. In modern form turned on left side. Compare 女 (OC *naʔ, *nas, “woman”), which has developed similarly, but does not include dots for nipples and has lost one breast in the modern form.
Middle Sinitic: /məuX/
Old Sinitic
(Baxter–Sagart): /*məʔ/
(Zhengzhang): /*mɯʔ/
For convenience's sake.
91 OB forms for 母.
For the sake of comparison, check the Bronze forms as well.
13. We don't have evidence from the OBI or before the OBI that 女 meant "slave", not "woman".
14. 女 also has the reading rǔ ("you; surname of a fāng 方 [ancient northern people]").
rǔ 汝
In the same xiesheng series as rǔ 乳 ("milk; breast; suckling; newborn").
Glyph origin:
Pictogram (象形): A kneeling woman breastfeeding a child.
See striking graph here and here.
=====
That's enough for now.
julie lee said,
October 19, 2021 @ 4:18 pm
@Chris Button said:
" the idea that 女 depicts any breasts is utter nonsense. It is unequivocally a kneeling figure with its arms crossed and has nothing specifically feminine about it. The addition of the dots for nipples to create 母 (which is then confused with 女) does suggest the presence of breasts to feminize the form as a result of its semantic evolution, but that comes later."
Chris,
I'm sorry, but you are wrong on several points, if we go by the Dictionary of Oracle Bone Inscriptions Characters (甲骨文字典) I mentioned earlier above. The dictionary, page 1299, gives forms of the character 女 “woman, female" of the earliest period (Period 1) WITH and WITHOUT the two dots for nipples. The dictionary says the two dots in the chest area represent female breasts. It also says the characters 女 with or without the two dots both mean "woman, female". Also says the character 女 with or without the two dots for female breasts has other meanings, including "mother", "wife of a deceased Shang dynasty king," etc.
On page 1307 of the same dictionary, it gives the oracle-bone character for 母 “mother" , which resembles the 女 character with two dots for breasts. But it also cites oracle-bone inscriptions where the 女 oracle-bone character WITHOUT the two dots means "mother".
Chris Button said,
October 19, 2021 @ 11:23 pm
@ Julie Lee and Victor Mair
Respectfully, and at the risk of sounding obtuse, I can only repeat myself for a third time:
So 女 was used for 母 and 母 for 女. Why that interchange happened is an interesting question–perhaps it ties into the semantic evolution of 女? One might also compare the confusion of 夕 and 月, although I recall that the confusion there only occurs in later period inscriptions and is more just a case of temporary convergence rather than confusion.
The OBI form of 女 with the hands crossed behind the back instead of the front is interesting. Should it be conflated with the standard form with the hands crossed in front (as many scholars seem to do)? Or should it be treated separately as 奴 as some other scholars have done (Takashima & Matsumaru's Soran cites Yu Xingwu; Fowler's UBC thesis cites Li Xiaoding) ? The problem is that the form with the hands behind the back is extremely rare, so not much can be done with it. However, the OBI graph usually transcribed as 如 (whatever it may originally have meant) fluctuates between hands in front and hands behind. Should they be differentiated or are they just variants?
Phil H said,
October 25, 2021 @ 9:29 pm
@Chris The proto-orthographic question is interesting, but I don't think it's relevant to Julie's point. Throughout recorded history, 女 has had the female meaning; through several script revolutions, characters with very negative connotations retained the 女 element. This supports Julie's suggestion of misogyny baked into the script. Whether or not there was some period 4,000 years ago when 女 had a different meaning isn't a factor in Julie's argument.
Chris Button said,
October 26, 2021 @ 9:15 am
@ Phil H
Sure. I wasn’t arguing for or against the idea of misogyny in the script. I was just making a side comment about the character 女 itself. That then became a discussion unto itself (as things often do in the comments section).