Taiwan(ese) Taiwanese, part 3
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The question of what to call the languages of Taiwan and how to classify them with regard to their sister languages on the mainland has become one of the most exciting areas of discussion on Language Log, and it shows no signs of quieting down yet, especially not when we keep getting stimulating infusions from the press like this article:
"Language naming is complicated", by Lee Hsiao-feng 李筱峰, Taipei Times (8/17/24)
Recently, the Ministry of Education announced that it would adopt the term “Taiwan Taiwanese” (台灣台語), to replace the term “Minnanese” (閩南語, “Southern Min”), as a unifying name for the language spoken in Taiwan.
I discussed this issue with some friends.
“I went to Xiamen in China in 1990 and chatted with a local. I said that his Taiwanese sounded similar to mine. He told me he speaks the Xiamen dialect of Minnanese, not Taiwanese. Taiwanese is a term only people in Taiwan use to refer to the form of Minnanese they speak, but the original term is Minnanese,” one friend said.
“As I recall, the term ‘Taiwanese’ was first coined by Japanese officials during the Japanese colonial era. At that time, prospective educators from Japan studying at Taiwan Provincial Normal Institute [now National Taiwan Normal University] were required to take Taiwanese language classes, as they were to teach Taiwanese students. Japanese police officers were also required to learn the local language so they could communicate with Taiwanese under their jurisdiction. There are several Taiwanese dictionaries that retired Japanese police have compiled,” another replied.
However, semantically, Taiwanese refers to the language of Taiwan, but Taiwan has many languages.
“The early Austronesians in Taiwan spoke 10 to 20 distinct languages. Later, immigrants from Zhangzhou and Quanzhou in China’s Fujian Province brought Minnanese of various dialects to Taiwan. The Hakka were the next ethnic group to travel in large numbers to Taiwan, bringing their own Hakka language, of which the Hailu, Sixian, Raoping, Dabu and Zhao’an are dialects. These are all languages of Taiwan, so why is only Minnanese considered Taiwanese?” one of the friends asked.
“It is because descendants of Fujian immigrants make up the majority of Taiwan’s population today,” a friend answered.
“Then why is it not called ‘Taiwanese Minnanese?’” another person asked.
“Minnanese is a discriminatory term. The Chinese character for Min (閩) contains the character for insect (chong, 虫). It was a name the early Central Plains people in China used for surrounding ethnic groups. We should not use it,” a friend answered.
“True, but this term has already become commonplace. It is fine to just keep the original meaning in mind. More than 1,100 years ago, during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period, one of the kingdoms was called Min. Are you saying they called themselves insects?” a friend asked.
“Taiwanese and Minnanese are different languages from different language families. They contain many different terms and pronunciations,” a friend answered.
“The Zhangzhou and Quanzhou dialects have pronunciation differences. Are they also of different language families? The Hailu and Sixian dialects of Hakka also have their differences. Are they not from the same family as well?” another person asked.
“I remember when the Chinese writer Lin Yutang (林語堂) moved to Taiwan in 1965. He said hearing locals speak Minnanese in Taipei made him feel at home. Born in Fujian, his mother tongue was Minnanese and he could understand what Taiwanese were saying. Are these from different language families?” a friend asked.
“Exactly. If I can effectively converse with someone from Xiamen, why are our languages considered different language families?” one asked.
“American English, Australian English and British English all have different accents. Even their word choices sometimes differ, such as ‘football’ and ‘soccer,’ but they are all known as being part of the English language,” a friend said.
“The language Americans speak could be called ‘Americanese,’” another said.
“Sure, but they probably would not call it ‘American Americanese.’ Using ‘Taiwanese’ is one thing, but why call it ‘Taiwan Taiwanese?’ Minnanese as spoken in Singapore is called Hokkien, the word derived from the Hokkien pronunciation of the Sinitic characters for ‘Fujian.’ Why do they hot call it ‘Singapore Singaporeanese?’” the person asked.
“I also think the inclusion of ‘Taiwan’ is illogical. Should we also start saying ‘Singaporean Taiwanese,’ ‘Xiamen Taiwanese,’ or ‘Quanzhou Taiwanese?’” another asked.
“It is to distinguish Taiwan Taiwanese from ‘Taiwanese Hakka,” another said.
“Then we can say ‘Taiwanese Hakka’ and ‘Taiwanese Minnanese,’” a friend said.
“However, ‘Minnanese’ is still a discriminatory term,” another said.
“Perhaps we can use the term ‘Hokkien’ or ‘Hoklo,’” the friend replied.
The discussion went round and round with everyone having their own opinions on what to call the language spoken in Taiwan. We did not come to a conclusion.
I like the way the participants in this exciting discussion agree to disagree, and don't end up shouting at each other.
I think it is time we take a poll of what to call the main non-Mandarin language of Taiwan.
Also, I'd be curious to know what Language Log readers think we should call the national languages of (Great) Britain / England / United Kingdom; (United States of) America; Canada; Australia; New Zealand….
Selected readings
- "Taiwan(ese) Taiwanese, part 2" (7/27/24)
- "Taiwan(ese) Taiwanese" (7/22/24)
- "The classification of [nan] Chinese (Min Nan)" (7/27/24)
- "List of countries and territories where English is an official language" (Wikipedia)
- List of countries in which English is recognized as an official language (Lingoda) — 67 different countries and 27 non-sovereign entities, bearing in mind that Taiwan already uses English for certain administrative purposes and has given serious consideration to making it an official language, and so has Japan, which I have pointed out on a number of occasions on Language Log
[Thanks to June Teufel Dreyer]
AntC said,
August 16, 2024 @ 3:40 pm
what Language Log readers think we should call the national languages of (Great) Britain / England / United Kingdom; (United States of) America; Canada; Australia; New Zealand….
I say 'British English', 'New Zealand English', 'American English', 'Australian English'. But within Britain/British Isles I'd also distinguish 'Irish English', 'Welsh English', 'Scots English', 'Highland Scots', and a whole heap of topolects/place-based dialects.
wrt the languages of Taiwan, I'd note they have a bunch of vocab left over from the Japanese occupation era, and other East Asian languages brought by the island's entrepôt role. I think that's sufficient to mark Taiwanese varieties as distinct 'topolects' — which is a very helpful coinage for these purposes. Distinct 'languages'? I think that's a political question. Note that Taiwan does have an army and a navy; and they spend each day heading off incursions from PRC's army and navy.
Jenny Chu said,
August 16, 2024 @ 9:29 pm
If the two speakers of Minnanese could understand each other but still sounded awfully different, then why not Taiwan Minnanese and Mainland China Minnanese? Likewise, Taiwan Mandarin and Mainland China Mandarin (they also have a lot of distinct vocab).
~flow said,
August 17, 2024 @ 3:06 am
Maybe make up a completely new term to replace 'Taiwanese' would be the right thing to do.
And let's not forget that semantics and naming are bitches: 'American' is not 'the language of the Americas'; a person from Brazil is, in one sense, 'an American', but in another sense, they're not, although they're definitely 'a Latin-American', except when they're indigenous and not inclined to identify as such. Similar difficulties abound: where is 'Europe'? What is a 'European language'? Is Finnish one, being centered in Europe (but is it?), or not, being a-typically not of Indo-European descent? Do I include Austria when I talk about 'German' (the state, the ethnicity, the culture, the language)?
I want to put forward using 諵 (Mandarin nán ㄋㄢˊ, apparently read nam2 in both Hakka and Hoklo, though that's just spelling). This is a little-used character yet it's not absurdly rare and inlcuded in the Unicode BMP as U+8af5, so rather accessible and well-supported. It doesn't mean a lot, yet, so it makes for a good empty vessel to pour in new wine.
Kangxi has, among other things, 【玉篇】語聲。【類篇】聒語也。 […] 【韻會】[…] 諵諵，多言貌。 so not unfit for the purpose of denoting language as it already refers to speech sound, clamor and lots of talking. Endonyms are frequently words that just refer to "the people", "the language", so here's one that means exactly that and you only have to grab it and put it to use, now.
Also, the components of the character check out: Language and South, so 'Southern Language', 'Voice of the South'. That's practicably unobjectionable.
Also consider the possibility of your language becoming popular just because people start producing 諵諵貓 (NamnamCat) memes ;-). Consider the possibility of retaining the [-m] coda even when talking Mandarin. 諵語, 諵文, 諵話 namyu, namwen, namhua all sound perfectly cromulent to me. For clarity's sake call it 台灣諵語 in broader contexts, as in the introductory part of an article or book so we're all on the same page.
AntC said,
August 17, 2024 @ 5:20 am
[Taiwan has] a bunch of vocab left over from the Japanese occupation era
What I _did_not_ say is "10% of Taiwanese are of Japanese descent". This seems to be a scurrilous claim by a PRC alleged 'scholar'.
As the article goes on to point out
Philip Taylor said,
August 18, 2024 @ 1:52 pm
"I'd be curious to know what Language Log readers think we should call the national languages of (Great) Britain / England / United Kingdom; (United States of) America; Canada; Australia; New Zealand" — well, I know in advance that my answer will be deemed both provocative and irrational, but for me, "the national language of (Great) Britain / England / United Kingdom" is "English", the "the national language of [the] (United States of) America" is "American", and "the national languages of Canada; Australia; New Zealand, [etc.] are "Canadian English" (or Québécois where appropriate), "Australian English", "New Zealand English", etc.
KIRINPUTRA said,
August 20, 2024 @ 9:08 am
> but the original term is Minnanese
It would be interesting to know what percentage of readers here believe this to be true in the secular sense, i.e., in a chronological sense.
KIRINPUTRA said,
August 21, 2024 @ 2:38 am
The map here is another timely reminder of how "Taiwan" didn't generally mean Formosa 125 years ago. (Or even 70.)
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=8039375346131727
Rodger C said,
August 24, 2024 @ 1:35 pm
I think you mean "how 'Taiwan' wasn't generally used for the island also called Formosa." Not by westerners certainly–I can remember that. What you said seems to suggest that "Taiwan" once meant some other place.
Vampyricon said,
August 27, 2024 @ 8:10 pm
English, probably :D
But in seriousness, probably Taiwanese Hokkien, since the Southern branch of the Min languages is generally considered (rightly or wrongly) to consist of 3 languages: Hokkien, Teochew, and Hainanese, and the language in question isn't one of the latter two.