Taiwan(ese) Taiwanese
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This has become a hot button issue in recent weeks.
Do we need such a term? What does it signify?
Is there any other kind of Taiwanese?
We have Australian English, British English, and American English; we have Canadian / Quebec French and Belgian French and Louisiana French (I love to hear it), and Swiss French…; Caribbean Spanish, Castilian Spanish, Andean Spanish, Rioplatense Spanish, Canarian Spanish, Central American Spanish, Andalusian Spanish, Mexican Spanish…; Taiwan Mandarin, PRC Modern Standard Mandarin (MSM), Sichuan Mandarin, Northeastern Mandarin….
What's the contrasting / distinguishing term for "Taiwan(ese) Taiwanese"?
Here's an article in Chinese in a Taiwan newspaper that argues for the name of Minnan language on Formosa to be "rectified (zhèngmíng 正名)" as "Táiwān Táiyǔ 台灣台語" ("Taiwan[ese] Taiwanese"). Here's Chau Wu's reaction to the article:
EP0【台語的迷思】台語為什麼不叫閩南語？學台語的重要性是啥？｜台南妹仔教你講台語
Tainan: The 400-year-old cradle of Taiwanese culture (7/10/24)
[VHM: This is a worthy article, covering many facets about the history and culture of Tainan. What the author, Will Buckingham, has to say about Ayo makes clear that she is a treasure for the preservation of Taiwanese language.]
Ayo summarizes it very nicely: Tai-gi is a proper noun, which was developed during the Japanese era and this term has been in customary use since then. Even the dictator Chiang Ka-shek used this term. The situation is no different than the American usage of "English" in this country. This term is a historic term, and is a proper noun. Americans never give a thought to its nominal incongruity (a wrong language in a wrong country – Italian spoken in Italy, Icelandic in Iceland, Japanese in Japan, etc. But English in America?).
I think Chau put it very nicely, especially as he added in a subsequent note:
Taiwan(ese) Taiwanese — enough already!
Selected readings
- "Mixed script writing in Taiwan" (5/24/24)
- "A crack in the hegemonic edifice of hanzi" (5/23/24)
- Taiwanese, Mandarin, and Taiwan's language situation
- Dozens of Language Log posts touching upon American English, British English, Australian English
[h.t. shaing tai]
Philip Taylor said,
July 22, 2024 @ 7:34 am
For Chau (please forward if he does not subscribe here) — « In UK, is English called "English of England" ? » — No, it is called "British English", which is not only a phrase that is used in everyday speech but also the designation of the language in which my operating system operates, the language which my browser seeks in preference to any other topolect, etc.
Peter Taylor said,
July 22, 2024 @ 7:47 am
With respect to Philip Taylor's comment about operating systems, it's worth noting that Windows 10 (I don't have easy access to other versions of Windows to compare) supports 4 varieties of Italian (Italian Italian, Swiss Italian, Vatican Italian, and Sammarinese Italian. It's quite unusual for it to be more specific than nation-state, but the variants of Catalan which it knows are Andorran, French, Italian, Spanish, and Spanish (Valencia). I suspect that at some point the Generalitat Valenciana threatened to move to Linux if Microsoft didn't add that special case.
Benjamin E. Orsatti said,
July 22, 2024 @ 8:36 am
(1) It's true that there's no conscious incongruity when Americans think of English as the national language. We don't think of England when we say English any more than the English think of the Anglic Germanic tribe that gave the name to begin with. It's just "the language we speak", and the term "American English" is generally only called on whenever there's a need to distinguish it from some other form of mater lingua nostra, but even then, we don't _really_ mean "American English" (as if there were such a thing); we really mean the central Midwestern newscaster-speak variety, the closest analogue to which, in terms of use and dispersal, is probably on the continuum of BBC-RP/Estuary.
(2) What in the world is "Vatican Italian"? — I thought that was called "Latin".
David Marjanović said,
July 22, 2024 @ 12:27 pm
The Vatican does largely function in Italian; but are there any spelling differences between the four Italian-using countries or anything? (There are between the German-using countries, though they're tiny except for the lack of ß in Switzerland.)
Jonathan Smith said,
July 22, 2024 @ 12:29 pm
Haha to the article and to "台灣台語" but the comparison to English above is wrong — a rough parallel to "American English" vs. "British English" etc. would rather be (e.g.) "Taiwan(ese) Hokkien" vs. "Amoy Hokkien" etc. or something. That is, "Taiwanese" is *already* a conventional place-name-based renaming of the language(s) also known as "Taiwan(ese) Hokkien", "Taiwan(ese) Minnan" etc. — THAT'S why "Taiwan Taiwanese" is stupid.
As to why this language gets to be called "Taiwanese" but the Hakka(s) spoken in Taiwan, etc., don't, yeah, what Ayo said — very-long-standing convention. That said, it is not useful / correct to suggest that this language is in special need of the name "Taiwanese" because it's attained some statistically significant degree of difference from "Amoy Hokkien" and the rest due to borrowings from Formosan languages, Japanese, etc… the answer is still convention.
Fascinatingly, Wi-vun CHIUNG writing in Taiwanese at times uses "Tâi-oân" in naming the Hokkien(s) of Taiwan and "Thòi-vân" in naming the Hakka(s) of Taiwan — so in English we could have "Taioanese" vs. "Thoivanese" and so forth which would be awesome… "Taiwanese" would then of course mean Taiwanese Mandarin :D
John Rohsenow said,
July 22, 2024 @ 12:37 pm
Wkipedia quoth: "Taiwanese Hokkien (/ˈhɒkiɛn/ HOK-ee-en, US also /ˈhoʊkiɛn/ HOH-kee-en; Chinese: 臺灣話; Pe̍h-ōe-jī: Tâi-oân-ōe; Tâi-lô: Tâi-uân-uē), or simply Taiwanese, also known as Taiuanoe, Taigi, Taigu (Chinese: 臺語; Pe̍h-ōe-jī/Tâi-lô: Tâi-gí / Tâi-gú),[c][11] Taiwanese Minnan (Chinese: 臺灣閩南語), Hoklo and Holo,[12][13] is a variety of the Hokkien language spoken natively by more than 70 percent of the population of Taiwan.[14] It is spoken by a significant portion of those Taiwanese people who are descended from Hoklo immigrants of southern Fujian.[15] It is one of the national languages of Taiwan. "
Cornelius (Neil) Kubler said,
July 22, 2024 @ 1:27 pm
In 2019 the Chinese government news agency Xinhua published a style guide for reference by newspaper editors and website designers listing hundreds of banned and sensitive terms that should be avoided (新华社新闻信息报道中的禁用词和慎用词, https://cbgc.scol.com.cn/news/170417). Unsurprisingly, one of those many terms is 台语 Táiyǔ.
Victor Mair said,
July 22, 2024 @ 2:36 pm
@Neil
Now THAT is really revealing.
Philip Anderson said,
July 22, 2024 @ 2:42 pm
Unlike Philip Taylor, I wouldn’t say that “British English” is used in everyday speech, though most people are aware that American English is different. We just call it English unless there’s a need to draw attention to a difference (as we often do here). Of course those of us who use computers regularly know that it’s necessary to select English (UK) as a setting, but that’s the usual format – language (country) rather than adjective language.
In Europe, countries tended to coalesce around a language (even if some are peoples, but no longer independent countries). Some parts of Asia too, but not at all in the Americas, where not a single independent state has its own language.
NSBK said,
July 22, 2024 @ 3:00 pm
I've seen "English (UK)" and "English (US)" replaced with "English (Traditional)" and "English (Simplified)" in jokes/memes, though I suppose that's more of a reference to written forms than to spoken ones.
Rocs said,
July 22, 2024 @ 3:27 pm
"Unification" doesn't have to be under the name of PRC.
You can do it, theoretically, under the name of ROC.
Both Taiwan and the Mainland are still theoretically part of ROC as stated in the Constitution of ROC.
AntC said,
July 22, 2024 @ 5:24 pm
The official language in Taiwan is Putonghua ('Mandarin'), _not_ some variety of Hokkien.
Never the less, it's Putonghua with Taiwan characteristics. Contrary to what Prof Mair frequently claims, there are many (mostly young/under 40) people in Taiwan who are competent in only Putonghua, not (some variety of) Hokkien. (There were many years under the KMT one-party rule when all other topolects were suppressed; certainly weren't a language of instruction in schools.) That is: they'll claim to understand Hokkien, and indeed might well follow simple set phrases; but they're not capable of an extended conversation.
So it would be entirely reasonable for "Taiwanese" to mean the Taiwan variety of Putonghua. But language/naming things doesn't follow "reasonable" logic like that. When I first took an interest in Taiwan, it was confusing that 'Taiwanese' didn't denote the default language you heard on the streets most of the time.
Compare that with British English, it is both the official language and spoken (not just understood) by everybody (possibly with the exception of recent immigrants). And yet to Chau's question
In UK, is English called "English of England"?
It's called 'British English' (as others have pointed out), and it's not ridiculous to say so. (To Philip Anderson's point: of course whilst you're in England, by default "English" means 'British English'. Now I live in New Zealand, "English" means 'New Zealand English'; conspicuously to NZ-ers I still speak British English. This is mildly amusing to my family back in UK: conspicuously I no longer sound like I speak British English.)
So I think it makes sense to talk of 'Taiwanese Putonghua/Mandarin', and of 'Taiwanese Hokkien'. To call that bare 'Taiwanese' is denigrating all the other Chinese topolects (with Taiwanese characteristics) spoken in Taiwan, including Hakka, Matsu, Wuqiu, and especially insulting to the Formosan indigenous languages.
With all that said, and putting logic to one side, the PRC propaganda (so-called Taiwan newspaper) that Prof Mair quotes is clearly tendentious. So let bare "Taiwanese" said in Taiwan by default mean 'Taiwan Hokkien'.
Victor Mair said,
July 22, 2024 @ 6:29 pm
@AntC
"Contrary to what Prof Mair frequently claims…."
False.
I have often stated how sad I am that many / most young / under 40 people in Taiwan do not speak Taiwanese.
Your last paragraph misses the whole point of the newspaper article and our dissatisfaction with it. I think that some Taiwanese scholars may soon come on board to join Chau Wu in correcting you.
Philip Taylor said,
July 23, 2024 @ 3:52 am
« Unlike Philip Taylor, I wouldn’t say that “British English” is used in everyday speech, … » — I think that may well be true for people who (a) have no particular interest in language(s) per se, and (b) who mixed primarily with other white Britons. But as someone who is (a) interested in language(s), and (b) mixes on an almost daily basis with Vietnamese, Chinese, Filipinos/as, Ukrainians, Romanians and French (just the first six to come to mind — there may well be others — I find that I use the phrase "British English" in a regular basis when discussing with one of the previously named how best to express something in English. I make a point of saying "In British English we might say …" because (a) I know that in other topolects it may well be expressed differently, and (b) the person with whom I am speaking may well have acquired their idiolect from one or more persons who are not native speakers of British English.
KIRINPUTRA said,
July 23, 2024 @ 11:43 am
@ Victor
This topic has been a crazy mess for many years, and that article is a rough point of entry. I’ll just point out that:
— The article opposes the “台灣台語” (or 臺灣台語) moniker.
— Most people seem to agree that “台灣台語” is silly on some level.
— “台灣台語” isn’t meant to differentiate Formosan 台語 from non-Formosan 台語; it doesn’t translate as “Formosan Taioanese”. “Taioanese of Formosa” is a decent literal translation, but “Taioanese Formosan” might better capture the spirit.
— “台灣台語” is meant to neutralize the perceived (-as-politically-incorrect) exclusivity of the 台 in “台語”. In other words, counterintuitively, the emphasis is on a parallel (to Hakka, etc.) Formosanness.
— Notice the role of Quemoy Hokkien 金門福建語 in the saga as it has unfolded so far. (It seems to have been completely ignored.)
As for the underlying issue (“Taioanese”), we should keep in mind that:
— “Taiwan” (& cognates) did not chiefly refer to Formosa as a whole till the 1880s at the earliest; the idea of “Taiwan” as an alt. name for the Repub. of China only goes back three decades. Check out this interview (largely in Hakka, with Mandarin subtitles) with Ms. Kolas Yotaka (Amis herself) where she explains which tribe the Amis word “Taywan” refers to.
https://x.com/SuiTaibun/status/1508314402696863745
— The so-called “African” language is arguably — by some token — a form of Dutch, with (asymmetric?) mutual intelligibility on the same “order of magnitude” as Taioanese vs Hokkien. Everything is consistency.
KIRINPUTRA said,
July 23, 2024 @ 11:49 am
@ Jonathan Smith
“Taioanese” was a REnaming only to the extent that it was called (as it still is) “Hoklo” (& cognates). Away from the Hakka-Hoklo contact zones, what became Taioanese did not have a stable, specific name.
“Minnan” (& cognates) did not precede “Taioanese”; nor was pre-Taioanese called “Hokkien” (or equivalent) or “Amoy” (or equivalent). Outside of the Hakka-Hoklo contact zones, it was referred to situationally. Mackay in his memoirs generally called it “Chinese”.
Well said.
KIRINPUTRA said,
July 23, 2024 @ 11:50 am
@ Cornelius (Neil) Kubler
Except when referring to the Tai language family, right? ;)
Jonathan Smith said,
July 23, 2024 @ 12:31 pm
@ KIRINPUTRA
Good point; "renaming" makes wrong implications re: chronology — I should have said that "Taiwanese" is a conventional place-name-based *alternative designation for* the language(s) also known as "Taiwan(ese) Hokkien (etc.)". All such terms are kinda new…
FWIW accounts of names for this language/languages generally include Tâi-oân-ōe, place-name-based in the same way, but also plausibly older Lán-lâng-ōe, which is not (place-named-based) but still interestingly contrastive… any idea re: context in which this term emerged?
Also — the article quotes some authority saying (paraphrasing) "the term Minnanyu is used everywhere including say Singapore; if it is good enough for everyone else it should be good enough for Taiwan" — but I didn't have the impression that this term/cognates were typical in Singapore or indeed anywhere among the insular Southeast Asian diaspora. Correct or?
Chris Button said,
July 23, 2024 @ 4:21 pm
Wouldn't that be 泰 instead?
Chris Button said,
July 23, 2024 @ 4:42 pm
Oh wait, 台 for the Tai language family, but 泰 for the Thai language that belongs to it.
KIRINPUTRA said,
July 23, 2024 @ 9:53 pm
@ Jonathan Smith
Fair, although some of its cognates (such as “Taywan” in Amis) might not be place-name-based at all.
Almost certainly from situational use, alongside similar expressions like LÁN Ê ŌE 咱个話. In modern Taioanese, LÁN LÂNG CHA̍P-GŌ͘ 咱人十五 means the 15th of the traditional (E. Asian) month, while LÁN LÂNG CHA̍P-GŌ͘ HÒE 咱人十五歳 means “15 years old, in the traditional reckoning”. These usages arose in contact situations. LÁN LÂNG ŌE 咱人話 as a lexical usage only seems to exist in the Philippines, poss. only since 1920, once a second Chinese language (Mandarin) had become salient in (the highly literate) Philippine Chinese society. I’ve never heard LÁN LÂNG ŌE used spontaneously (lexically or not) in Taioanese or in Straits Hokkien; not sure about LÁN LÂNG Ê ŌE 咱人个話, which might not leave an impression in Formosa (and might not make sense in the Straits).
You’re right, they’re not. Was the academic truly ignorant, or did the writer misquote him? Was the academic once misinformed by a Chinese Malaysian student-immigrant (typically Neo-Chinese nationalists, to fetishistic proportions) that everybody calls Hokkien “闽南语” in his homeland? The possibilities are exhausting.
Min said,
July 24, 2024 @ 1:06 am
Olympic. Paris 2024. No Taiwan team. Only "Chinese Taipei".
Why don't they change? Black hand from Beijing.
For the last 8 years, DDP was in control of the Congress.
President Tsai was also DDP (as opposed to the "evil pro-Beijing Nationalist (KMT)".
They did not abolish the term ROC and create their favorite "Republic of Taiwan".
They are good at all these little dramas.
What do you think:
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61560319677788
Min said,
July 24, 2024 @ 3:07 am
"Don't have the guts to declare independence. Only play with little dramas instead":
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?id=61560319677788&story_fbid=122119869308343989
Min said,
July 24, 2024 @ 9:18 am
Amendment:
DDP should be DPP (Democratic Progressive Party).
“Oy vey! The news network you cited from belongs to the pro-China, pro-"Re-unification" United Daily News organization (Note: PRC has never controlled Taiwan, and the latter has never been part of the former, so why call it "re-unification"?). Of course, their reporters will seek out opinions from the so-called scholars who would spit out such non-sense.”
I am not sure if you are trying to relate “Unification” with the word “United” from “United Daily News organization”. If it is of yes, then it may disappoint you. You could look up online and see why it is called “United”.
Even if it is about “Reunification”, it does not have to be done under the name of PRC. Both the Mainland and Taiwan were once ruled in the name of ROC at the same time. The Constitution of ROC, up to this moment, still states that the Mainland is still part of ROC.
Of course you can stay away from “such non-sense” by ignoring reports from this press. You have that wonderful “sandwich” (三“民”“自”)* to suit your appetite.
* Note: In Taiwan, there are three media nicknamed as “三明治” (San Ming Zhi）("sandwich")： “三”(san)立電視, “民”(min)視,“自”(zhi)由時報. They have such a "good" reputation of broadcasting the ideas and opinions from DPP.
James Wimberley said,
July 24, 2024 @ 9:54 am
My reading of the Valencian situation is different. Valencian is a dialect of Catalan. The non-secessionist Valencians want to keep using it, but not to be identified with those lunatics in Barcelona. So they have invented and promoted a Valencian language as a convenient myth. Google for one isn't buying it. My Google homepage (I live in Spain) states that "Google is offered in Español catala galego euskara", reflecting a professional understanding of linguistic differences.
Rodger C said,
July 24, 2024 @ 12:37 pm
What James Wimberley said. I've known Valencians who insisted that their dialect was a language because of no reduced vowels etc. But in fact the main dialect division in Catalan is between Eastern Catalonia (etc.) on the one hand and Western Catalonia and Valencia on the others.
Victor Mair said,
July 24, 2024 @ 12:44 pm
From Chau Wu:
Please see a recent article in Liberty Times on this topic, written by a Master's degree holder in Taiwan Studies. It gives a clear historical perspective of the term "Taigi".
https://talk.ltn.com.tw/article/paper/1658205
It confirms my statement in your post:
"Tai-gi is a proper noun, which was developed during the Japanese era (underline added just now) and this term has been in customary use since then."
I also said even the dictator Chiang Kai-shek used this term (i.e., 台語). Here's a picture of the cover of a 1958 book as a proof.
(VHM book cover photo omitted in this comment)
Winnie said,
July 24, 2024 @ 3:31 pm
Dictator, dictator, dictator. Are you trying to seek endorsement from a dictator? If it is the case, then I feel so embarrassed for you.
Dictator is to be cursed and demystified. It is now 2024, not 1964. Why DPP did not declare independence for the last 8 years? Try to do something the dictator Chiang Kai-shek had not done to show that how democratic progressive you are.