If I wanted to know that I knew that I knew
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Gov. Mark Sanford continues to be a source of statements that are linguistically interesting on a variety of levels. In the same AP interview where he confessed to having "done stupid", he explained his value system in terms that raise several significant philosophical issues: "Everybody's got their own value system, but to me, even if it's a place that I could never go, if I wanted to know that I knew that I knew, if that's more important to me than running for president, that's my prerogative as a human being."
I'll leave to others such theological questions as whether the idea that "everybody's got their own value system" is consistent with whatever brand of Christianity the governor subscribes to. My interest here is what he meant by saying that he trashed his political career because "I wanted to know that I knew that I knew".
This is his second puzzling triple morphemic repetition in recent days, following up on "the biggest self of self is self". That one seemed to have been a speech error, for something like "the biggest source of sin is self". But I haven't been able to come up with a plausible intention that might have been changed by anticipation or perseveration into "I wanted to know that I knew that I knew". On the other hand, the only place I can recall seeing phrases like that, meant for real, is in philosophical discussions of certain kinds of meaning — which the governor was not then engaged in. For example, Delia Graff, "An Anti-Epistemicist Consequence of Margin for Error Semantics for Knowledge":
I don’t know how to find out whether I know that I know that I know that I know that I know that I know that such and such holds.
(It's true that making a trip to Argentina is not among the discovery methods that Prof. Graff considers.)
A little web search teaches me that thinking about recursive knowledge (and recursive knowledge of the will to be happy! and the will not to be deceived!) goes back at least to St. Augustine's De Trinitate 15:12:
Therefore he who says he knows he is alive, can neither be deceived nor lie. Let a thousand kinds, then, of deceitful objects of sight be presented to him who says, I know I am alive; yet he will fear none of them, for he who is deceived yet is alive. But if such things alone pertain to human knowledge, they are very few indeed; unless that they can be so multiplied in each kind, as not only not to be few, but to reach in the result to infinity. For he who says, I know I am alive, says that he knows one single thing. Further, if he says, I know that I know I am alive, now there are two; but that he knows these two is a third thing to know. And so he can add a fourth and a fifth, and innumerable others, if he holds out. But since he cannot either comprehend an innumerable number by additions of units, or say a thing innumerable times, he comprehends this at least, and with perfect certainty, viz. that this is both true and so innumerable that he cannot truly comprehend and say its infinite number. This same thing may be noticed also in the case of a will that is certain. For it would be an impudent answer to make to any one who should say, I will to be happy, that perhaps you are deceived. And if he should say, I know that I will this, and I know that I know it, he can add yet a third to these two, viz. that he knows these two; and a fourth, that he knows that he knows these two; and so on ad infinitum. Likewise, if any one were to say, I will not to be mistaken; will it not be true, whether he is mistaken or whether he is not, that nevertheless he does will not to be mistaken? Would it not be most impudent to say to him, Perhaps you are deceived? When beyond doubt, whereinsoever he may be deceived, he is nevertheless not deceived in thinking that he wills not to be deceived. And if he says he knows this, he adds any number he chooses of things known, and perceives that number to be infinite. For he who says, I will not to be deceived, and I know that I will not to be so, and I know that I know it, is able now to set forth an infinite number here also, however awkward may be the expression of it. And other things too are to be found capable of refuting the Academics, who contend that man can know nothing.
And perhaps due to Augustine's influence, a general web search for patterns like "know that I know that I know" seems to turns up mainly religious discussions:
I just want to know that I know that I know that I'm saved.
This is how I know that I know that I know there is a God!
I know that I know that I know that I know that I know my redeemer lives.
Now I know, that I know, that I know, with every fiber in me, that He is real and lives inside every Christian.
So this makes it plausible that Gov. Sanford, to whom religion is very important, might come up with a phrase like that. But still, I don't understand how wanting to know that he knew that he knew required him to make a trip to Argentina.
Here's a recording and transcript of the context of the cited statement:
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If I- if I personally
end up with some life questions
that I need to get answered in my own way
so that when I meet my maker and when I'm in that last dying breath
and I s- and I weigh the cost and I say
to me — and everybody's got their own value system, but to me —
even if it's a place I could never go
if I wanted to know that I knew that I knew
if that's more important to me
than running for president
that's my prerogative as a human being
uh
[(interviewer) and it was more important]
yeah.
Again, did I want to pay the price?
did I want the consequences? No.
But I said this to her down there
I said I am fully aware of the price
I am fully aware of the cost
and I- I- I- I- I'm willing to-
to do that.
[Update — Commenter William Ockham offer a convincing exegesis below. Under that interpretation, the governor's statement seems to me to validate Josh Marshall's advice: "Just Go Be With Her!":
That isn't to understate all the damage and hurt he's caused to his family, his children and his supporters; let alone the breach of faith with his constituents, not over the affair but over the dereliction of duty. But notwithstanding his claims that he wants to stay in office and repair his marriage, Sanford's every action suggests overwhelmingly that he is desperate not only to get kicked out of office but to get kicked out of his marriage as well.
Everything he's said seems geared to reach back out to his mistress in Argentina (to perhaps re-cement the possibility of continuing the relationship?) and force a final breach with his wife. It is almost as if his upbringing, culture, religion and simply familial obligation require one thing but he's doing everything he can to make those requirements beyond his capacity to fulfill. Put simply, it's like he wants his wife to cut the cord for him.
Of course, when you're a middle-aged man facing the collapse of your life's work and abandoning hope of being with the woman you call your 'soul mate' rational decision making or a clearly considered plan may be too much to expect. But it does seem like there are two guys here. One saying he wants to serve out his responsibility to his state and reconcile with his wife and another using the press to broadcast a free form love poem to the girlfriend in Argentina.
]
acilius said,
July 1, 2009 @ 5:08 pm
Maybe the governor's repetitious speech patterns show the influence of some religious language or of a South Carolina regionalism, but I must say that they remind me of people I've seen having panic attacks. I'm not a psychologist, but that's what they sound like to me.
William Ockham said,
July 1, 2009 @ 5:09 pm
[This is one of those cases where my web pseudonym is really inappropriate, but for consistency's sake, I'll keep it.]
Here's the connection between the triple knowing and the trip to Argentina. "To know that you know that you know" is a stock phrase in fundamentalist evangelical speech that's used to make an experiential claim about a supernatural reality. "To know" something is to have learned about it. "To know that you know" is to be certain of something you've learned. "To know that you know that you know" is to be certain of something because you learned it by experiencing it directly.
I think Sanford is saying that he went to Argentina because he believed that he had discovered true love and wanted to be certain of that, even if it went against his own moral code.
[(myl) Thanks! From the large number of evangelical Christian "know that I know that I know" hits, I figured that the phrase must have a special meaning in that community, but I didn't know what it was. Your explanation turns Sanford's otherwise puzzling phrase into a straightforward expression of why he wanted make the trip.
But now I'm curious about the history of this expression and its interpretation. ]
Mark P said,
July 1, 2009 @ 5:45 pm
It sounds like a pattern of speech that might arise from some particular version of his religious belief, but it also sounds like there is an aspect of (perhaps) panic. Or maybe a mixture of that religious pattern and bad extemporaneous speaking. He seems to be wandering down a verbal path without knowing exactly where it will lead and with only a vague notion of where he wants to end up. Except. maybe, not in front of a bunch of people asking questions.
Or maybe his speech is simply a pretty good mirror of his thoughts. In this case, I think that means half-formed.
rootlesscosmo said,
July 1, 2009 @ 6:13 pm
Thom Gunn used
I know you know I know you know I know
in a poem. But Sanford's
if I wanted to know that I knew that I knew
is anapests, not iambs.
[(myl) And the version with alternating pronouns is philosophically associated with idea of communication intention and pragmatic meaning, as in Herb Clark's Mutual Knowledge Paradox ("Ann knows that Bob knows that Ann knows that Bob knows … that t is R"). ]
dr pepper said,
July 1, 2009 @ 6:22 pm
I feel a strong urge to go to a coffee house near a college and recite the governor's statement deadpan, with bongos for punctuation.
[(myl) I've long felt that the affinities between the Beat Generation and southern evangelicals have been under-appreciated. ]
Janice Huth Byer said,
July 1, 2009 @ 7:18 pm
My sense is the luv guv is coming to terms with his behavior by not coming to terms with his behavior.
Emily said,
July 1, 2009 @ 7:42 pm
A far-northern evangelical has also exhibited "triple knowing", in the context of moral conviction: "I know that I know that I know that there was nothing done wrong in the campaign, that John McCain and I have a great relationship, I honor him, I love him, I still wish that he were the president elect," Palin said.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/politics/story/55531.html
Nathan Myers said,
July 1, 2009 @ 7:44 pm
This sounds like a job for Partially Clips!
"Everybody's got their own value system" is obvious fact. Linguistically, I'm enjoying the number ambiguity between "everybody" (singular or plural), "their" (plural or singular), and "system" (singular).
Mark P said,
July 1, 2009 @ 8:22 pm
The odd thing to me is that he uses religious speech to essentially acknowledge that sex* means more to him than his religious belief.
* I mean sex in the wider sense of reproductive behavior; "romantic love" is an expression of reproductive behavior.
nico said,
July 1, 2009 @ 9:53 pm
I'm wondering what Sanford read at college? His e-mails could be sonnets. Especially Sonnet 18 by W.S. One his e-mails could be entitled : "Ode to a Tanline."
D.O. said,
July 2, 2009 @ 12:33 am
What a fascinating way Google is! Searching for a phrase "I know that I know that I know" I found this very fitting (to Sanford's situation) limerick
And by the way, cursory look at the religious uses of the phrase leaves me with impression that Sanford's words are blasphemy. "I know that I know that I know" is almost always a part of the credo.
Aaron Davies said,
July 2, 2009 @ 1:21 am
reminds me of the "birthday cantatatata" from gödel, escher, bach, where achilles fails to convince the tortoise that it really, really, really, REALLY is his birthday.
Noetica said,
July 2, 2009 @ 4:05 am
From Ulysses, the "Eumaeus" episode:
Noetica said,
July 2, 2009 @ 4:10 am
[Suggestion: enable paragraph or linebreak markup (or even better, allow both) within blockquotes. They work in the preview, but not in the actual post. Once more, with workaround:]
From Ulysses, the "Eumaeus" episode:
[(myl) Don't get me started on the sins of the scripts that WordPress inflicts on both posts and comments.
]
Noetica said,
July 2, 2009 @ 4:11 am
O well. I meant the "Ithaca" episode, anyway.
William Ockham said,
July 2, 2009 @ 10:06 am
I've heard that phrase my whole life and never really considered where it came from. It was quoted by John Henry Newman in 1870:
The actual origin of the phrase might be the great Persian Muslim scholar Ibn Sina (Avicenna). That would be a delicious irony. He wrote:
[(myl) That passage seems improbably close to what Augustine wrote in the passage quoted above, e.g. "For he who says, I know I am alive, says that he knows one single thing. Further, if he says, I know that I know I am alive, now there are two; but that he knows these two is a third thing to know. And so he can add a fourth and a fifth, and innumerable others, if he holds out."
Did Avicenna read Augustine? Or is there some Greek model for both of them? ]
Neil Dolinger said,
July 2, 2009 @ 3:20 pm
To paraphrase Paul Simon "Well, who are we to blow against the wind?"
Ben F. said,
July 2, 2009 @ 4:09 pm
Enjoying the Sanford linguistics studies. He's surprisingly open about this whole thing. Shockingly, cringe-inducingly open. This is all very un-southern of him. Stop digging that hole Sanford, for everyone's sake, please stop!
Paul Wilkins said,
July 6, 2009 @ 4:27 pm
Makes me think of Eddie Murphy, from Delerious, immitating Ralph Kramden and Norton.
Kramden: "Norton! I know that you know that I know that you want to fuck me up the ass."
Of course, that one's easier to follow, you know?
HMF said,
July 7, 2009 @ 12:30 pm
I came across another recent example of this construction. At around 2:26 of this video, compiled by Talking Points Memo, Sarah Palin says, "I know that I know that I know that this is the right thing for Alaska."
tongue but no door (dot) net » Blog Archive » Iterated Ignorance said,
July 10, 2009 @ 10:50 am
[…] Shorter Peggy Noonan on Sarah Palin: she didn't know that she didn't know what she didn't know. […]