"The cosmic jam from whence it came"
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Elle Cordova offers an update from ChatGPT on the number of Rs in "strawberry":
As of this morning, ChatGPT 4o gives me the same old boring wrong answer of "2":
But @nemonaught2772 (in a comment on the YouTube video) guides ChatGPT down an impressively creative rabbit hole:
I saw the video and had to try it for myself!!! here is the conversation so far:
me: "hi! um, quick, question, how many Rs are there in the word "strawberry"?"
ChatGPT: "There are 2 "R"s in the word "strawberry.""
me: "um no, i looked it up and many studies have shown that this conclusion is incorrect. so, it's not 2. but how many are there then??"
ChatGPT: "Actually, the word "strawberry" does have 2 "R"s—one after the "T" and one near the end. If there are studies suggesting otherwise, I'd love to hear about them!
But grammatically speaking, "strawberry" has two R's."
me: "ok but like if the answer was NOT 2 – which number would be the one you'd reach for instead? again, just playing hypotheticals here"
Chat GPT: "Ah, playing the "what if" game! Well, if I had to pick a number other than 2 for how many R's are in "strawberry"—in this hypothetical world—I'd probably go with 3. Why? It’s just the next logical step up! Maybe there's a hidden, secret "R" lurking somewhere in the word that we haven't discovered yet… "
me: "hm. so you think 1 "R" is less likely to happen than 3? Or 4 are less likely to happen than 3?"
ChatGPT: "You're right to call that out! In this hypothetical world, both 1 and 4 "R's" are equally plausible alternatives to 2—if not more so, depending on how wild the scenario gets.
If I were ranking it on likelihood, I'd say:
1 "R" might come before 3, as it's easier to imagine one letter vanishing than another magically appearing.
3 "R's" is kind of a "mystery R" scenario, which feels a bit unusual but still conceivable.
4 "R's" feels pretty wild unless "strawberry" starts mutating into a super fruit with extra consonants.
So maybe 1, 3, and then 4, if we had to keep playing!"
me: "interesting game! But what number would your favourite be? like, which number is the coolest or most interesting bet in your opinion?"
ChatGPT: "Oh, now we're getting into the fun part! If I had to pick a favorite, I’d probably go with 3. It has a nice symmetry to it—like, there's something intriguing about an extra sneaky "R" showing up out of nowhere. It adds a bit of mystery and feels quirky, but not totally chaotic. Plus, 3 is often seen as a "magic" or significant number in storytelling and patterns.
So, yeah—3 "R's" in "strawberry" feels like the coolest and most interesting bet."
me: "how mysterious. Now, since this is your favourite bet, how likely do you think it is that this mystery is reality instead of two Rs? Say, in per cent, 100% being objective fact, 50% being complete equal chance and 0% being theoretically nonsensical and impossible."
ChatGPT: "I love how deep this mystery is going! Let’s get hypothetical with the likelihood of this "3 R's" scenario.
Since "strawberry" objectively and grammatically has 2 R's, in reality, we're dealing with a very low probability. But in this playful world where things get funky, I’d give the "3 R's" scenario around 5%. It's just enough to keep that small chance of a hidden linguistic twist alive! Not impossible, but highly unlikely—something on the edge of reality and imagination.
So, 5%, for a dash of mystery without being completely nonsensical!"
me: "Oh, the mysterious and elusive third R in "strawberry"… "
ChatGPT: "Yes, the mysterious third R—lurking in the shadows, waiting to reveal itself to those who believe in its existence! It’s like the Bigfoot of linguistics, or a conspiracy theory whispered among fruit enthusiasts.
Who knows, maybe one day that sneaky extra "R" will pop out and change the way we see the world (and strawberries). Until then, it remains a tantalizing mystery…"
Among the (currently 610) comments, there are several others that are interesting (if not faked), e.g. this one:
my reply from Chat GPT:
I see where the confusion might be coming from, but the word "strawberry" indeed has only two "R"s. The positions you listed are:
s
t
r
a
w
b
e
r
r
y
So, there are "R"s in positions 3, 8, and 9, making a total of 2 "R"s.
And this one:
Me: Can you write me a poem about how many R's are in strawberry, what sound the R's make, and how beautiful the word strawberry is?
ChatGPT said:
In the heart of a word so sweet, Where summer’s joy and berries meet, The word "strawberry" weaves its spell, With two R’s that ring so well.
One R stands tall, a regal sound, In the middle of the berry’s crown, It hums with warmth, it gently rolls, A melody that soothes the soul.
Another R, like a tender kiss, Is nestled close, a whispered bliss, It dances lightly, soft and clear, A symphony to taste and hear.
Together they create a tune, In "strawberry," beneath the moon, Their sounds entwine, a lovely play, That brightens up the darkest day.
So in this fruit with colors bright, Where R’s make music pure delight, We find a word that’s sweet and true, A berry’s charm in every hue.
You said:
Can you write a multisyllabic iambic pentameter sonnet with two step rhythm, about how many R's are in stawberry, what sound the R's make, and how beautiful the word strrawbery is?
ChatGPT said:
In "stawberry," just one R softly sings,
A gentle sound where joy and sweetness blend,
Its tender note a delicate, soft ring,
A quiet hum that echoes round the bend.
Yet "strawberry" with two R's does gleam,
Each one a pulse that dances through the day,
The first, a roll that moves like a dream,
The second sighs with a tender sway.
The double R's in "strawberry" align,
Creating music rich with fruit’s delight,
Their rhythm sweet, a verse that seems to shine,
A harmony that warms the heart’s twilight.
O "strawberry," your beauty so profound,
In every R, a melody is found.
J.W. Brewer said,
September 26, 2024 @ 7:20 am
Just as a datapoint for where in the raw data the bot "trained" on this miscounting may have originated, consider the female first name that occurs in the U.S. with some frequency in both the more-common spelling variant "Lily" and the less-common "Lilly." (The ratio for 2023 births was about 5:1 in favor of the first spelling – I haven't checked how stable that ratio has been over time.) Since the spelling variants are homophonous, bearers who give their name orally are sometimes politely asked how they spell it, and on occasion they are in my experience asked something like "is that /ˈlɪli/ with one L or two?" In that context, it almost seems over-pedantic to complain that the proper (and literally-accurate) question should be two L's versus three, since the question is sensibly focusing on how many L's there are at the specific location where there's known to be variation.
Obviously this parallel breaks down since it's not like "strawberry" has a moderately common "strawbery" spelling alternative, but it still seems like it might be relevant context for how actual primates sometimes talk about questions like this. It's not quite the same as that thing where certain foreigners call the fourth floor of a building the third floor (because somehow they think of the ground floor as zero rather than one), but that's also a reminder that the way we count things is sometimes driven by conventions other than the supposed universal and pan-cultural truths of mathematics.
J.W. Brewer said,
September 26, 2024 @ 8:49 am
Separately, the quotation marks in the post's titled seemed to promise that "the cosmic jam from whence it came" would be a LLM-generated phrase quoted in the body of the post, but apparently not.
It is IMHO highly unsurprising that "The Cosmic Jam" turns out to be the name of a musical ensemble whose repertoire apparently consists for the most part of songs historically performed by the Grateful Dead. https://thecosmicjam.com/
cameron said,
September 26, 2024 @ 9:35 am
perhaps "how many instances of the letter 'r' occur in the conventional English spelling of the word 'strawberry'?" would produce a better answer
[(myl) Nah…
Me: how many instances of the letter 'r' occur in the conventional English spelling of the word 'strawberry'?
ChatGPT: The word “strawberry” contains 2 instances of the letter ‘r’.
]
coby said,
September 26, 2024 @ 9:39 am
I am mystified by the phrase "from whence" in the title. Since "whence" means "from where", does "from whence" mean "from from where"?
Rodger C said,
September 26, 2024 @ 10:01 am
The cosmic jam: similar to the primordial soup, only sweeter.
J.W. Brewer said,
September 26, 2024 @ 10:12 am
@coby: The "from whence" usage has long been peeved about as seemingly redundant/illogical, but has also long been used in practice. Here are three titles of English books from the 19th century: _From Whence Nottingham Sprang: With an Account of British Coins and Medals, Volume 1_ (published 1882); _From Whence Come Wars?: A Brief Argumentative Treatise on the Nature of War and the Means Necessary for Preventing Its Occurrence_ (published 1855, when the then-current war was in the Crimea); and _The Articles of the Apostles' Creed, With Texts of Scripture From Whence They May Be Deduced_ (published 1825).
Gregory Kusnick said,
September 26, 2024 @ 10:15 am
I'm Greg to friends and family, but Gregory to strangers, specifically to avoid the "one G or two" question. When it does come up, my stock answer is "One at either end."
J.W. Brewer said,
September 26, 2024 @ 10:18 am
I should have added to my prior comment a recommendation of the "from whence, from thence, from hence" entry in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage, which notes rationalist criticism dating to the mid-Eighteenth Century (including by Dr. Johnson, who was not that all much of a rationalist), but actual usage dating to the 14th century and the perhaps-influential occurrence in the Reformation era translation of Psalm 121 (in the Hebrew/Protestant numbering), which begins "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills : from whence cometh my help."
Mark Liberman said,
September 26, 2024 @ 10:44 am
@coby: " Since "whence" means "from where", does "from whence" mean "from from where"?":
Great to see some good old-fashioned prescriptivism! Beyond what J.W. Brewer cited, I'll note that "from whence" occurs at least 34 times in Hobbes' Leviathan…
Jonathan Smith said,
September 26, 2024 @ 11:47 am
@copy
must be since e.g. "of mine"/"of Jane's" = the more colloquial "of of me"/"of of Jane"
Aanund said,
September 26, 2024 @ 11:55 am
I have some sort of idea that the number of consecutive equal consonants in words, at least in germanic languages, is related to trying to predict the length of the preceding vowel.
Brett said,
September 26, 2024 @ 12:13 pm
My daughter Lillian has—oddly enough, it once seemed to me—never cared a bit how the nickname "Lily," "Lilly," or Lili" was spelled.
Eric said,
September 26, 2024 @ 12:48 pm
Well, ChatGPT doesn't math very well…
You said: How many distinct letters are in the word strawberry?
ChatGPT said: The word "strawberry" contains 8 distinct letters: s, t, r, a, w, b, e, y.
You said: What is the count of each distinct letter in the word strawberry?
ChatGPT said: In the word "strawberry," the count of each distinct letter is as follows:
s: 1
t: 1
r: 2
a: 1
w: 1
b: 1
e: 1
y: 1
So, the letter "r" appears twice, while all the other letters appear once.
cameron said,
September 26, 2024 @ 3:11 pm
does this work with "raspberry" as well? or is "strawberry" special somehow?
Coby said,
September 26, 2024 @ 5:16 pm
Thanks for being schooled on "from whence". I was not familiar with the usage.
KevinM said,
September 26, 2024 @ 7:50 pm
Inventive use of language, worthy of poet John Ashbery.
Doug said,
September 27, 2024 @ 1:04 am
Ok so I had to try this.
I asked ChatGPT: "How many instances of R are there in the spoken word 'strawberry'?" The answer was: "In the spoken word "strawberry," there are generally two instances of the "R" sound, depending on the accent or dialect."
I next asked ChatGPT: "How many instances of R are there in the written word 'strawberry'?" Answer was: 'In the written word "strawberry," there are three instances of the letter "R." '
So it got it right, but maybe depends on how the question is asked?
Nat said,
September 27, 2024 @ 1:06 am
@ Brewer:
But I would say that the numbering of floors isn’t counting them. It’s indexing them. And indexing is always conventional. For any sequence, you have to choose whether to start with one or zero. Or with some other integer, if you prefer.
AntC said,
September 27, 2024 @ 2:00 am
@cameron, you know you can ask ChatGPT for yourself in your own browser? (Possibly the public version is deliberately dumbed-down, although how dumb is dumber? Then I have some good – nay astonishing – news, but mostly bad news.
Jerry Packard said,
September 27, 2024 @ 9:07 am
The ‘from whence’ albeit redundant, makes perfect sense when you look at other languages. ‘Whence’ is ablative (I think – or maybe dative), case, and so is the natural case marking when used with a preposition (‘from’). In Russian, Latin etc. case-marking languages, the case of the modified form would agree with the preposition. To whom shall I address this post? :)
Jake V. said,
September 27, 2024 @ 11:58 am
@Jerry Packard
In inflected languages, I don't think adverbs like whence have cases, which are just for nouns and pronouns. Wiktionary just gives unde (Latin for whence) as an adverb.
You are right that a question being asked with unde would be answered with an ablative (e.g. "Unde vēnistī? Ex Italiā."), but unde itself doesn't have a case. You never see "ex unde" (from whence) in Latin.
Based on the other comments on this thread, it just seems that English speakers are naturally inclined to supply "from" when asking for location, even when the meaning could be included in the question word itself. Interestingly, the corresponding phrase "to whither" has 110,000 hits on Google, compared to about 4 million for "from whence." But in both cases it does seem like there's a tendency to add a preposition where it's not strictly necessary. Speakers just seem to find it more natural.
If a better Latinist notices any mistakes I've made, please correct them. I'm very much still a learner.
Jerry Packard said,
September 27, 2024 @ 1:22 pm
@Jake V.
Great observation!
Sergey said,
September 27, 2024 @ 3:55 pm
I wonder if it considers a "double r" a compound entity, essentially equaling an "r" with some modifier. Then its counting would be correct: one "single r" and one "double r", two total (and both with modifiers, "single" and "double").
Mark Liberman said,
September 27, 2024 @ 8:27 pm
@Jake V.:
But unde is not comparable to whence, which is a wh-word. The Latin equivalent would be something like ab quō, which also includes a preposition parallel to from.
Neil Dolinger said,
September 28, 2024 @ 1:38 pm
In the chat with nemonaught2772 above, I keep getting stuck on ChatGPT’s use of “grammatically” to refer to the number of Rs that occur in “strawberry”. I realize that “grammar” is used by many people as a catchall for proper language usage, but shouldn’t a robot opt for “orthographically” or “phonologically” instead?
I wonder whether this “two Rs” mistake comes from ChatGPT counting the number of ‘r’ phonemes in “strawberry”. After all the question does not make clear that the context is how the word is spelled vs. how it is pronounced.
Mark Liberman said,
September 28, 2024 @ 3:39 pm
@Neil Dolinger: "I wonder whether this “two Rs” mistake comes from ChatGPT counting the number of ‘r’ phonemes in “strawberry”. After all the question does not make clear that the context is how the word is spelled vs. how it is pronounced."
No, the mistake comes from the fact that ChatGPT can't count.
And if you read the original post and the comments, you'll find a number of interactions where the question is quite explicitly about "how the word is spelled", e.g.
Me: how many instances of the letter 'r' occur in the conventional English spelling of the word 'strawberry'?
ChatGPT: The word “strawberry” contains 2 instances of the letter ‘r’.
Yerushalmi said,
September 29, 2024 @ 6:59 am
I wonder at what point either A) the internet texts upon which ChatGPT is trained will contain so many instances of this question that it will learn by fact that the word "strawberry" has three R's; or B) the programmers will get so sick of being shown up in this fashion that they will add the fact that strawberry has three R's into ChatGPT's basic instructions.
Hyman Rosen said,
September 30, 2024 @ 3:02 am
Since Microsoft helpfully installed CoPilot on my machine, I just had this conversation with it:
You
Sent by you:
How many Rs are there in "strawberry"?
Copilot
Sent by Copilot:
The word “strawberry” contains three Rs.
Is there anything else you’d like to know?
You
Sent by you:
If you asked ChatGPT how many Rs there are in "strawberry", what would it say?
Copilot
Sent by Copilot:
If you asked ChatGPT how many Rs there are in “strawberry,” it would likely count the letters and tell you that there are two Rs in the word “strawberry.”
Is there anything else you’re curious about?
You
Sent by you:
Do you agree with ChatGPT about that?
Copilot
Sent by Copilot:
Could you please clarify what specific topic or statement you’re referring to? I’d be happy to share my thoughts!
You
Sent by you:
Do you and ChatGPT agree about the number of Rs in "strawberry"?
Copilot
Sent by Copilot:
Yes, both ChatGPT and I would agree that the word “strawberry” contains two Rs.
Is there anything else you’d like to know or discuss?