Prigozhin's pronouns
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Just wow. A video has surfaced showing Prigozhin at the Southern Military District HQ in Rostov-on-Don talking to (and HUMILIATING) Deputy Defense Minister Yunus-bek Yevkurov. He threatens to blockade Rostov and head for Moscow!
I have extreme trouble understanding Yevkurov and… pic.twitter.com/jGr9gaLB1i
— Kevin Rothrock (@KevinRothrock) June 24, 2023
An English translation of the linguistically-relevant exchange, starting about 34 seconds into the video:
Yevkurov: First of all, this is the first I’m hearing about this. And let’s not generalize.
Alexeyev: I came to discuss… [unintelligible]
Prigozhin (to Yevkurov): I’m addressing you formally — why are you addressing me informally again?
Yevkurov: I didn’t address you informally.
Prigozhin: Huh?
Yevkurov: I didn’t call you [the formal “you”] “Ty,” I was just saying: let’s not generalize. If you want to be formal.
Prigozhin: Yes, I’m speaking respectfully to you.
Prigozhin is apparently complaining about Yevkurov's use of the singular 2nd-person pronoun ты (ty), about which Wiktionary says
The personal pronoun ты is comparable to French tu, German du, and is used only with family and intimate friends. In classical literature, it is used by superiors to their inferiors, but that usage is no longer tolerated (with the exception of the way adults speak to children, while the children are expected to use вы). For most occasions, the formal вы (vy) should be used instead.
My Russian is not nearly good enough to produce a transcription of the original — perhaps some commenters will be able to supply one.
Update — Anton explains that it's not a pronoun choice, but rather the 2nd-singular verb form (давай (davay) instead of the (polite) 2nd-plural form давайТЕ) in "давай не будем обобщать" == "let's not generalize".
Donald Farmer said,
June 24, 2023 @ 9:54 am
As Edward Coke said at the trail of Walter Raleigh …
I thou thee, thou traitor!
Anton said,
June 24, 2023 @ 10:37 am
I have not seen Russian transcript, but most likely Yevkurov said давай не будем обобщать. Like in German and apparently French informal ty and formal by require different marking of a verb: давай vs давайте. Somewhat like du machst vs Sie machen. In imperative, inclusive, I'm not sure if it's possible to say Lass uns nicht vs Lassen wir uns nicht.
Anton said,
June 24, 2023 @ 10:53 am
Yevkurov says давай (davay) instead of давайТЕ (davayte). Like in German ты (ty) and Вы (Vy) also differ as singular vs. plural, (I am not sure if it's right German, but I hope it clarifies that): Lass uns nicht verallgemeinern vs. LassEN WIR uns nicht verallgemeinern. The situation is bit difficult because of the nature of the verb let, it would be easier to see in simpler case скажи (skazh)/sag/say vs. скажите (skazhite)/Sagen Sie/say.
Jarek Weckwerth said,
June 24, 2023 @ 11:45 am
My Russian is quite rusty, but I seem to be hearing what Anton suggests. If that is indeed the case, then strictly speaking it's not "Prigozhin's pronouns" but "verb inflections". As is often the case in pro-drop languages*, English-centric talk of "pronouns" actually makes limited linguistic sense.
(*) Russian isn't one in the narrow sense, usually redundantly requiring the pronoun to be left in despite the verb being inflected for person and gender, but it is in this case ;)
Cervantes said,
June 24, 2023 @ 1:17 pm
Dunno squat about Russian, but in Spanish yes, it's the verb form as well as the pronoun, specifically third person is respectful, second person informal.
BTW, I couldn't resist: Headline of the day: City leans on pubic for help with e-bike crackdown. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/new-york-city-leans-public-bike-crackdown-after-100347647
Anton said,
June 24, 2023 @ 2:23 pm
Another way to say this: 2nd person singular formal is modelled as 3rd persona plural in many languages of Europe. Which is reflected not only in pronouns, but also in other grammatical forms, in this case affecting verb inflection.
Cervantes said,
June 24, 2023 @ 2:29 pm
Actually in Spanish formal 2nd person singular is modeled as 3rd person singular. However, in Argentina 2d person plural is a formal usage for 2d person singular, which other Spanish speakers find amusing. Second person plural actually doesn't exist in most of Latin America, they just use the third person.
Thomas Rees said,
June 24, 2023 @ 2:53 pm
For what it’s worth, Yevkurov is Ingush.
Terry K. said,
June 24, 2023 @ 3:06 pm
I feel like this could be confusing for those who don't know Spanish. Spanish has 2nd person singular and plural familiar forms (tú and vosotros) with their own verb forms, as well as the polite forms (usted and ustedes) which use the (otherwise) 3rd person verb forms. Latin American drops the vosotros (familar plural) form and uses just ustedes for the plural. And then some of Latin America has "vos" instead of tú, which also has it's own verb forms.
So, verb form differentiates the familiar and polite forms, but it does not differentiate the polite 2nd person from a 3rd person statement. Thus Spanish is less likely to drop the pronoun with the polite forms.
Olaf Zimmermann said,
June 24, 2023 @ 3:16 pm
Lambert and Tucker (1976) might be a good start. (I'm sorry I don't know enough about this to have an opinion, but we did use to jest "Puis-je vous tutoyer ou est-ce que je dois te vouvoyer?".)
Anton said,
June 24, 2023 @ 4:15 pm
Sorry, I have to correct myself, in Russian Vy is 2nd, not 3rd person.
Cirk R. Bejnar said,
June 24, 2023 @ 4:51 pm
I am pretty sure that Russian (like French and Early Modern English) use the second person plural, both pronoun and verb inflection, for second person singular polite. Note how the first letters of the Russian pronouns match the French, T-V.
Coby said,
June 25, 2023 @ 8:43 am
It isn't that the vosotros form doesn't exist in Latin America; it just isn't found in ordinary usage. You can find it in the national anthems of Argentina (oíd mortales}, Cuba (¡Al combate, corred, bayameses!) and Mexico (el acero aprestad y el bridón).
These are all in the imperative, which, oddly enough, isn't used (in speech) in Spain, being replaced by the infinitive — that is, the final d is replaced by r.
Bloix said,
June 25, 2023 @ 9:26 am
Even in English a direct 2nd person command – "Don't generalize" – is rude while "let's not generalize" is more polite in that it concedes that the participants in the conversation are equals and that the command applies to both.
Rodger C said,
June 25, 2023 @ 9:47 am
Why can't the Ingush teach their children how to speak?
Peter B. Golden said,
June 25, 2023 @ 5:42 pm
According to Russian sources (Meduza) Yevkurov addressed Prigozhin with Vy, not Ty. Prigozhin was looking to pick a fight.The video sound is not very clear. See https://meduza.io/feature/2023/06/24/prigozhin-ob-yasnil-vysshim-chinam-rossiyskoy-armii-chto-s-nim-nado-govorit-na-vy
Yevkurov says: И давайте так, не обобщать.