Impolite politeness?
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A few days ago, I listened to Frank Deford advise the Wall Street Journal to modify its style guide ("Mister Is To Sports As Crying Is To Baseball", NPR 5/12/2010):
… because it is the Journal's style to refer to hedge funders in their bespoke suits and Turnbull & Asser shirts and ties by their courtesy title, it has foolishly decided to maintain this same policy in sports.
Thus we have a discussion of a "Mr. Braden's perfect game," a "Mr. Barajas behind the plate," and a "Mr. James, who works for a Cleveland firm." Having the Journal cover sports is rather like having Miss Jane Austen write them for you, with Mr. Darcy batting and Mr. Bingley pitching.
Thank heavens the legendary Grantland Rice was not working for Mr. Rupert Murdoch when he wrote about a Notre Dame backfield — that most famous line ever to appear on a sports page — or it would've come out this way: "Outlined against a blue-gray October sky, the Four Horsemen rode again. In dramatic lore they were known as Famine, Pestilence, Destruction and Death. These are only aliases. Their real names are Mr. Struhldreher, Mr. Miller, Mr. Crowley and Mr. Layden."
Or as Howard Cosell would've called out memorably on Journal television: "Down goes Mr. Frazier! Down goes Mr. Frazier!"
The New York Times already obeys Deford's principle by using titles in regular news but not in the sports section. Thus
Just after midnight on Feb. 25, 2006, Faisal Shahzad sent a lengthy e-mail message to a group of friends. […]
Mr. Shahzad was wrestling with how to respond.
but
A little more than two hours after Manager Jerry Manuel discussed why he removed Oliver Perez from the Mets’ rotation, the next pitching crisis unfolded before his eyes. …
On Friday, Perez allowed four home runs in less than four innings and was promptly demoted to the bullpen.
And this made me think of the poem that would no longer scan if rendered as
These are the saddest of possible words:
"Mr. Tinker to Mr. Evers to Mr. Chance."
Or similarly for this one:
Then from 5,000 throats and more there rose a lusty yell;
It rumbled through the valley, it rattled in the dell;
It knocked upon the mountain and recoiled upon the flat,
For Mr. Casey, mighty Mr. Casey, was advancing to the bat.
But mostly, this made me think of a recent case where one sports figure created a bit of controversy by referring to another one as "mister so-and-so". The context was a "let's-you-and-him-fight" controversy, of the kind that sports journalists specialize in, involving DeSean Jackson and Donovan McNabb.
McNabb was the quarterback of the Philadelphia Eagles from 1999 to 2009. He was recently traded to Washington for a second-round draft pick, as part of a sort of youth movement on the part of the Philadelphia team. Jackson, a wide receiver going into his third pro season, has been the most popular young star of that youth movement, at least as quantified by jersey sales. He was the subject of a cover story in the May 10 Sporting News, in which he was asked a series of obviously dangerous questions about the McNabb trade.
Pretty much any possible answer could have been used to spark a pseudo-controversy — if he says that McNabb will be missed, then he's criticizing the team's management and McNabb's replacement, Kevin Kolb; if he says that the team will be fine without him, then he's dissing McNabb.
Unsurprisingly, Jackson chose to respond that he was "very happy with the decision" to trade McNabb, and that "I don't think we lost anything, even with McNabb being gone." These quotes, no doubt without the context of the questions, were then used to goad McNabb into observing that
It's so wild when people get to talking when you're not there, but when you're there everybody loves you … So I guess people will go deeper into it than I will. I'm a Redskin, no longer an Eagle. I had 11 great years and I'm moving on with my life, so whoever may say things when I'm gone, more power to them, but it's not making you look like a bigger man.
Jackson then tried to spread oil on the water:
It was nothing against Mr. McNabb… It's just that I'm very confident in what we have here now, with Kevin Kolb and Michael Vick.
And the next day, I listened to a whole hour of sports talk radio discussing how big an insult his use of mister was. It meant, some insisted, that McNabb was old and out of touch with the younger players, that he had been a distant and ineffective leader in the huddle, etc. A few callers tried to argue that Jackson was just being polite and respectful, but this opinion was laughed to scorn.
I have no opinion on the question of whether Jackson meant his mister maliciously. This a good example of the male soap opera aspect of sports, where every nuance of every interaction is analyzed and re-analyzed from every possible emotional and interpersonal angle, and I'm more of a numbers kind of person when it comes to sports, reserving my analysis of emotional nuance for science and engineering. But I do feel that the literature on interpersonal interaction should pay more attention to the general problem of impolite politeness.
möngke said,
May 16, 2010 @ 1:16 pm
I was always under the impression that the English words "mister" and "miss", when used in isolation, are considered somewhat insulting. Although that might just be sample bias, in addition to transference from Slovene (where calling someone gospodična "miss" is considered at least untactful, if not outright offensive).
Wea said,
May 16, 2010 @ 1:32 pm
To möngke:
Although "sir" is used more commonly than "mister", "miss" is used frequently in the US as a title for young women or girls by waiters and other such people. "Mister" almost never used without the last name of a person, but it would not be insulting to do so.
Josh said,
May 16, 2010 @ 1:44 pm
My theory: "Mister" and "Miss" are used ironically. These titles are brought out when a person is not performing according to their expected role. If you're behaving with grace, then no one needs to draw attention to your formal status.
John Walden said,
May 16, 2010 @ 1:53 pm
It reminds me that cricket-playing amateurs were 'gentlemen' and professionals 'players'. In team lists and results the gentlemen were Mr J Smith or Lord John Smith, but the hired hands were Smith J.
Russell said,
May 16, 2010 @ 2:10 pm
My hunch is that you could probably get pretty good start understanding how "Mister" is interpreted here (by some people, anyway), by using existing theories of politeness. Say "mister" is an indication of negative politeness (a la Brown and Levinson), and/or deference (a la R. Lakoff), and that it basically indexes social distance. Distance and deference aren't inherently (im)polite, but in a context where positive politeness/camaraderie is expected or being constructed, deference can be insulting, possibly because it indirectly indexes the sorts of emotions or stances of social situations where distance is appropriate. Thus the feeling that it implied McNabb out of touch and distant. [though the idea that it specifically conveyed the idea that he was distant in the huddle would require some more work]
Well, it's a sort of mechanistic application of those politenes theories, but I think it's a good start, anyway.
(A quick look at asahi.com seems to show that the Asahi Shimbun does not use -san for athlete names, but does for regular folk being talked about [unless they have a cooler title, like Prime Minister or Suspect]. Just FYI.)
jk said,
May 16, 2010 @ 2:21 pm
Wea,
I would interpret "mister" when used without a name as at least very likely to be insulting, equivalent to "missie" rather than miss. Even when "mister" solo is not insulting, it does sound unstandard to my Midwestern ears — the kind of thing a Jerry Lewis yokel would call out: "Mister! Hey, Mister!"
mollymooly said,
May 16, 2010 @ 2:24 pm
@John Walden "In team lists and results the gentlemen were Mr J Smith or Lord John Smith, but the hired hands were Smith J" I believe the same is still true in horse racing. Did Wimbledon call male players "Mr Tilden" and "Mr Perry" back in the amateur days? They used Mrs/Miss for women regardless of pro status.
There's also the question of how players refer to their coach/manager when talking to the media. In the US I imagine "coach" works; in England "the gaffer" likewise. But what if you need a name? I surmise "Coach Smith" works in America, but clearly not in England. "Mr Smith" may be a smidgen too deferential, while "Jim" or "Smiffy" is too disrespectful. You could always try "Sir Alex".
Boxer Barry McGuigan always referred to his manager Barney Eastwood as "Mr Eastwood" (at least till they fell out). Comedian Dermot Morgan had a novelty hit with "Thank You Very Much Mr Eastwood" on the back of that.
Dave M said,
May 16, 2010 @ 2:33 pm
For impolite politeness, you can't beat "excuse me," of which there are an amazing number of shades of belligerence, depending on context and intonation.
GAC said,
May 16, 2010 @ 3:33 pm
How common is "impolite politeness" cross-linguistically? I've heard of it occurring in Japanese (anecdotally), and in Spanish (Mainly with usted, which is fairly limited in when it's considered appropriate, at least in modern times — as is ustedes in Spain). Is it a common thing to use formal titles or polite forms in this sort of socially-distancing way?
Sili said,
May 16, 2010 @ 3:52 pm
I don't like sports, myself, so I have to say that the examples given make the whole thing sound civilised.
What's the custom in cricket?
Ray Girvan said,
May 16, 2010 @ 4:07 pm
möngke: I was always under the impression that the English words "mister" and "miss", when used in isolation, are considered somewhat insulting.
To me at least, they're plain dated. "'Ey, mister!" is what Cockney urchins call out in 1940s English films, and "Miss" is the type of address used by policemen in the same sort of genre: "Can you describe the man who purloined your hat, miss?"
John said,
May 16, 2010 @ 4:20 pm
Miss and Ma'am/Madam for women, Sir for men, for polite forms of address. (There being no polite form of address for young men: Master is archaic, despite Alfred's usage for young Dick Grayson.)
Mister strikes me as anachronistic and limited to use by children in any case: I keep seeing a newsie crying out "Hey, Mister!"
I would be careful though not to confuse genres here for the sake of scoring more points. A newspaper's style guide should never be applied to poetry.
And I would bet that part of the reason for the informality of the sports pages is condescension to mere athletes.
Nick said,
May 16, 2010 @ 4:22 pm
Once I was sitting on a bench, and the man next to me left, but he forgot the shopping bag he had with him. When I noticed, I took it, walked up behind him, and said "Excuse me, Sir."
Had it been a woman, I'm not sure what I would have said, because both "Excuse me, Ma'am" and "Excuse me, Miss" both sound a little silly to me. "Sir" seems pretty natural though. I'm not sure I would ever say Mister in a situation like that. I agree that it sounds a bit black-and-white.
Mark F said,
May 16, 2010 @ 4:44 pm
I agree with Ray Girvan — "Mister" used in isolation is something people say in old movies. He pictured a Cockney and I pictured a New York kid, so this change appears to be transatlantic.
But of course Jackson didn't use it in isolation as a form of address. In any case, it seems to me that "Mr. McNabb" is two steps too formal for a former teammate. I'd think he'd call him "Donovan."
Coby Lubliner said,
May 16, 2010 @ 4:56 pm
In Colombia, Mexico and possibly other Hispano-American countries, referring to a public figure (such as a politician) as Señor X is often regarded as insulting because it points out the absence of an earned professional title such as General, Doctor, Licenciado, Ingeniero or the like.
Rembrandt Q. Einstein said,
May 16, 2010 @ 5:37 pm
I'm reminded of a paragraph in Borges's "The Art of Verbal Abuse":
A conventional alphabet of scorn also defines polemicists. The title "sir," unwisely and irregularly omitted in spoken intercourse, is scathing in print. "Doctor" is another annihilation. To refer to the sonnets "perpetrated by Doctor Lugones" is equivalent to branding them as eternally unspeakable, and refuting each and every one of their metaphors. At the first mention of "Doctor," the demigod vanishes and is replaced by a vain Argentine gentleman who wears paper collars, gets a shave every other day, and is in danger of dying at any moment of a respiratory ailment. What remains is the central and incurable futility of everything human. But the sonnets also remain, their music awaiting a reader. An Italian, in order to rid himself of Goethe, concocted a brief article where he persisted in calling him "il signore Wolfgang." This was almost flattery, since it meant that he didn't know there were solid arguments against Goethe.
peter said,
May 16, 2010 @ 5:48 pm
This is one of those areas which debunk the old-fashioned notion that British society is more polite than American. Newsreaders and interviewers on the BBC now almost never use titles, not even "Mister," "Mrs" or "Ms", let alone "Mister Prime Minister", not when speaking of people nor to them. As a consequence, allegedly-harsh interviewers such as Jeremy Paxman sound merely rude to American or Australian ears, not sharp or intelligent.
David Eddyshaw said,
May 16, 2010 @ 6:01 pm
On the other hand, British surgeons are Mr/Mrs/Miss, not Dr. This is said to be a piece of inverse snobbery perpetuated from the time when surgeons were not usually medically qualified at all, though I've never really loooked into it.
[The matter is further complicated by the fact that British physicians normally do not have academic doctorates anyway (unlike Americans, with their MDs), but two bachelor's degrees, so that most are in fact not really "doctors" at all.]
I get slightly uncomfortable introducing myself (in professional contexts) with "I'm Mr Eddyshaw", because although this is in fact a meaningful professional designation in such situations , it would be pretty rude to introduce oneself in this way normally.
Amelia Eve said,
May 16, 2010 @ 6:06 pm
This usage exception for athletes was not always follwed by the NY Times.
In the early 1980s, I was highly perplexed by a headline about "Mrs. Lloyd" at Wimbledon. It took me some time to realize they were referring to Chris Evert, whose correct married name at that time was actually "Chris Evert-Llloyd." At that point in history, the Times' policy was to use a courtesy for any adult except convicted felons. They decided to make an exception for Mr. Spiro Agnew, respecting his former office despite his legal woes. The Times stylebook also required the added parenthesis "she prefers that title" for any woman identified as "Ms."
As for using the term "Miss" as a standalone form of address, it is still widely used in the New York area, and is applied to women of all ages. For some reason "Ma'am" is construed as insulting by many wome who believe it suggests that they are old. The complementary usage is "Sir," not "Mister."
Albert Vogler said,
May 16, 2010 @ 8:02 pm
I thought the class distinction between doctors and surgeons was at least partly related to the fact that surgeons worked with their hands. Thus, a "doctor", who probably wouldn't know how to lance a boil if he had to, would be considered a gentleman, whereas surgeons were merely rude mechanicals.
Private Zydeco said,
May 16, 2010 @ 8:10 pm
Adding a smidgeon of the exotic to this social deixis stockpot,
MWDEU has much to say about variation in the prosody (stress
pattern) of the word "exquisite". As said volume is not exactly
at arm's-length at this time, and as recalling the entry in which
the recipe for what turns out to be two subtly distinct dishes off
book might spoil the broth considerably, suffice it to say that
one side of the mushroom — that is, placing stress prepenult-
imately, on the word-initial syllable — confers ONE sense, and
the other side — with stress on the penultimate, i.e. second syl-
lable — confers another. The difference, it must be pointed out,
is as stark as that between meritorious applaud and of ironical
scorn.
J.W. Brewer said,
May 16, 2010 @ 10:46 pm
What might be called the "bare mister" (i.e. "Mister" used in direct address w/o being followed by an actual name) is a reasonably frequent stylistic tic of Bruce Springsteen lyrics (often where the narrator is addressing a very generic interlocutor who stands in for the-world-as-a-whole, rather than an identifiable character). Whether this reflects the actual sociolinguistic usage of blue-collar New Jersey English of some relevant generational cohort or not, I have no idea.
Related only tangentially, I have been called "Mister [firstname]" (as opposed to "Mister [surname]") by several people, but all of them that I can recall were Hispanic immigrants. I am assuming there's some standard Spanish usage pattern being calqued, but that's just speculation on my part.
Nanani said,
May 16, 2010 @ 11:02 pm
RE: > (A quick look at asahi.com seems to show that the Asahi Shimbun does not use -san for athlete names, but does for regular folk being talked about [unless they have a cooler title, like Prime Minister or Suspect]. Just FYI.)
That's because athletes have a cooler title themselves: athlete (選手:senshu). The World Cup stories will mention Murata-senshu, not Murata-san and certainly not simply Murata.
Buck Ritter said,
May 16, 2010 @ 11:32 pm
Isn't this why the Germans brought us the term "garçon?"
Barbara Phillips Long said,
May 17, 2010 @ 12:40 am
One time I got out of my car and went to the driver of the vehicle stopped ahead of me to tell him "Sir, you may not realize this, but both your taillights are out and only the driver's side brake light is working." His response was to round on me and tell me not to make fun of him by calling him sir, which surprised me because that wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to be able to see where the vehicle ahead of me was.
A related usage to the sir/ma'am/miss lexicon in customer service and other anonymous settings is the propensity of numerous people to use "miss" or "young lady" for women who have clearly passed the half-century mark Advice columnists get complaint letters about this habit occasionally, but there are certain people who think they've disguised their response ("Oh, she's old, so she must not want to be old") by implying that the woman is a young miss. Some people think calling an older woman a "miss" or "young lady" is flattering without realizing it simply calls attention to the fact that the speaker has noticed the customer's age, another impolite reaction disguised as politeness.
Jonathan Badger said,
May 17, 2010 @ 12:53 am
The "sir" as used by American police officers seems like a good example of this "impolite politeness" — a command like "Get out the car, sir" is basically "Get out of the car, scum" — they are in no way being deferential to the target, even not the feigned deference that waiters display by "sir".
GM said,
May 17, 2010 @ 1:20 am
My high school French teacher, when explaining the difference between informal "tu" and polite "vous," told us that "tu" was always used when addressing children. The only case in which you would address a child with "vous" is if you were scolding the child, so that seems like an example of this usage.
I would also say that "lady" as an address term is always impolite, at least in North America.
Jerry Friedman said,
May 17, 2010 @ 1:44 am
If the NYT doesn't use "mister" in the sports section, how does it draw the line? Is a team's billionaire owner "Lerner" in the sports section but "Mr. Lerner" in the business section? Is LeBron "James" when his actions as an employee (for now) of that Cleveland firm are reported, but "Mr. James" when he signs a new endorsement deal?
I hear bare "mister" once in a while, sometimes as an attempt at politeness, occasionally with hostility. When my students address it to me, it may arise because I ask them to call me "Jerry", which confuses some of them, and they come up with the wrong abnormal vocative. Occasionally I've had the impression that they forgot that I don't want to be called "Mr. Friedman" and forgotten my last name, so they just come up with "mister".
I believe etiquette books are unanimous in deprecating "mister" in favor of "sir". (Of course, there are situations when it's more polite to call a strange man "buddy", "bro", etc.)
I've heard parents of young sons call them "mister"—usually not when the parents are totally happy with their sons.
@Wea: Conversely, many people address waitresses as "miss", though in my experience fewer people address waiters as "sir".
@J. W. Brewer: Some of my students have called me "Mr. Jerry", maybe as a compromise between their training and my request. (Many of them are Hispanic, though only a minority are immigrants.) In parts of the American South, that's the standard way to address people—Robison County, North Carolina, is one such place, to my knowledge as of twelve or thirteen years ago.
@Barbara Phillips Long: "Young man" is equally condescending (though not equally frequent), it's not just among strangers, and it's one of my pet peeves. It implies not only that the person has noticed that you're old, but also that you're uncomfortable with it, and you're gullible enough to believe the most implausible flattery, and you're petty enough to like it.
Harry said,
May 17, 2010 @ 3:01 am
'Newsreaders and interviewers on the BBC now almost never use titles, not even "Mister," "Mrs" or "Ms", let alone "Mister Prime Minister", not when speaking of people nor to them. As a consequence, allegedly-harsh interviewers such as Jeremy Paxman sound merely rude to American or Australian ears, not sharp or intelligent.'
'Mr Prime Minister' just sounds weird; I guess it's modelled after 'Mr President', but it's simply not a form of address which is used at all. If Paxman addresses the PM as 'Prime Minister' that is the polite form of address: hence the TV series 'Yes, Prime Minister'.
Similarly, when Americans refer to 'Prime Minister Blair' ( or I guess I have to get used to it, 'Prime Minister Cameron'), that simply sounds wrong to me because we don't use Prime Minister as a title in that particular way. Americans generally seem more likely to use titles attached to surnames like that: Senator Smith, Governor Jones, Mayor Brown, Secretary Clinton. I can't offhand think of any people in British politics who get their job titles attached to their surnames in that way. Don't know why. Historically I suppose it could be intended to draw a contrast between the House of Commons where the members are, after all, supposed to be commoners, and the honorific-laden members of the House of Lords.
Bob Violence said,
May 17, 2010 @ 6:15 am
If the NYT doesn't use "mister" in the sports section, how does it draw the line? Is a team's billionaire owner "Lerner" in the sports section but "Mr. Lerner" in the business section? Is LeBron "James" when his actions as an employee (for now) of that Cleveland firm are reported, but "Mr. James" when he signs a new endorsement deal?
That seems to be the case. This Media & Advertising story on endorsements uses "Mr." throughout; this article in the sports section (also about endorsements) doesn't. Mark Cuban is just "Cuban" in the sports pages, but "Mr. Cuban" in the business section.
Clare said,
May 17, 2010 @ 7:21 am
Two related observations:
1) The sexism at Wimbledon until just last year, where the women were referred to by their titles on the scoreboard and not the men, viz Miss Clijsters, Mrs Henin-Haredenne (when she was) but Roger Federer. Thank God that's been stopped. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8126223.stm
2) The New York Times reporting on Iggy Pop's induction in the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. They referred to him as Mr Pop throughout the article. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/arts/music/16rock.html
I think both instances felt condescending, intended or otherwise. It seems to suggest that the speaker is at pains to point out the respect they are paying Mr Pop, the only means of which they have is using the title, since everyone knows it's otherwise undeserved, but we'll make this overture and then there can be no remonstration. In other words: the respect it's supposed to convey comes across as tokenistic.
I also get that feeling when people use the title (especially the academic title) "Dr". "I mean no disrespect to Dr X with her PhD and all, but in my humble opinion…" serves precisely to undermine the academic credentials.
This reminds me a bit of the Implications of Excessive Praise discussion:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1910
Jo said,
May 17, 2010 @ 7:34 am
In Italian, "il mister" (I even see a few cases of "la mister" for women) is the coach or manager of a team, and I've always wondered when and how it entered the language. Anybody know?
Ray Girvan said,
May 17, 2010 @ 8:29 am
Not forgetting "Mr Saavik", which address baffled Star Trek fans who didn't know the (then) naval tradition.
James Kabala said,
May 17, 2010 @ 9:55 am
I personally have no objection to "Mr." in the sports pages if it is used elsewhere. It may seem archaic, but I agree with those who dislike the two-tiered system more. I think I would favor Mr. (and female titles) in all sections or Mr. in no sections.
As Clare notes, Mr. can jar in the entertainment pages as well as the sports pages. I can think of an example, however, in which a star with a strange stage name was treated differently – I remember an article on a Police reunion that discussed "Mr. Copeland," "Mr. Summers," and merely "Sting." I suppose his problem was his one name; Iggy Pop at least has the semblance of a traditional two-part name.
I believe the long-deceased are also not regarded by the Times as entitled to Mister by the Times – no Mr. Shakespeare or Mr. Washington or (thank goodness) Mr. Hitler. Since the onetime rule against Mr. for convicted felons has been changed, this created an awkward (and denounced by civil rights groups) situation in which the obituary for Medgar Evers killer Byron de la Beckwith discussed "Mr. de la Beckwith" (since he was only recently deceased) and merely "Evers."
James Kabala said,
May 17, 2010 @ 9:56 am
Erratum: Sorry for the redundant "by the Times."
John said,
May 17, 2010 @ 10:22 am
Physicians in America at least grabbed the "Doctor" title for themselves, much to the consternation of us "real" doctors. Now of course the "real" doctors are MDs. O tempora, o mores! :-(
cruel wine said,
May 17, 2010 @ 10:33 am
I'm most intrigued by the phrase "male soap opera"!
Mr Punch said,
May 17, 2010 @ 10:36 am
At Fenway Park in Boston, the regular announcer uses no title in introducing the ballplayers: ""Batting fourth, the first baseman, Kevin Youkilis." But when a child does the announcing, as sometimes happens for a promotion of some sort, he or she usually (not always) says "Mister Kevin Youkilis." I take this as evidence of the title's use to show deference and respect.
"Mister" on it own (as in "Hey, mister!") retains some tinge of deference even when used sarcastically. It's more respectful than "mac," "bud," or "pal" — and I'd guess is most often addressed by a child to an adult.
"Doctor" is of course an insult in academic life, at least in America, as it draws attention to the addressee's lack of a professorial title. When I was an undergraduate (Harvard, '60s) professors in liberal arts fields were "properly" addressed as "Mr." (very rarely "Mrs."). Everything was different over in the medical area, where everyone was "Dr." — including both professors and those whose degrees were not in medicine.
Mr. Fnortner said,
May 17, 2010 @ 11:02 am
Regarding doctors and titles, a few years ago I spent quite a bit of time consulting with a philanthropic organization staffed by people who were medical professionals, not all of whom were MDs. The nurses who held PhDs were introduced as Ms. or Mr. "X" and referred to as a "PhD nurse." While this may have been considered a useful distinction within the organization, to me it seemed pretentious, somewhat insulting, and not superficially sexist.
In the courtroom, bare "Judge" always seemed a bit abrupt and "Your honor" more respectful, but I assume they are interchangeable and without loaded meaning. True?
Nickp said,
May 17, 2010 @ 11:20 am
J.W. Brewer and Jerry Friedman,
Mr. [firstname] or Miz [firstname] is the the way that my son addresses his preschool teachers and most other adults in North Carolina. Members of our church and close friends are on simple first name basis. I'll be curious to see if he graduates to Mr/Ms [Surname] in kindergarten.
I can't quite tell if what he pronounces "miz" is actually meant to be Ms or Miss. Either way, he never says Mrs.
His classmates refer to me as Mr. Nick or [Child]'s Daddy (the latter as a direct address, not just a description).
Mr. Punch:
In college (late 1980s), I and my classmates addressed all of our professors as Dr. Surname, never Professor Surname. We were all science or engineering students. Might this be a science/liberal arts difference, or were we just clueless?
Russell said,
May 17, 2010 @ 11:54 am
@Nanani:
Hmm… the articles I looked at (baseball and soccer) didn't use senshu, but just the athlete's family name. Maybe it's an online thing?
Jon Weinberg said,
May 17, 2010 @ 12:27 pm
Mr. Fnortner: I don't know from trial courts, but when I was a law clerk on a U.S. federal appellate court (many years ago), I heard lawyers use "Judge" much more often than they used "your honor." At the U.S. Supreme Court, by contrast, "your honor" was common — lawyers can't call Supreme Court Justices "Judge", and the bare "Justice" wasn't seen as appropriate, so the only things lawyers can *can* call them are "Justice [insertnamehere]" or "your honor".
Along somewhat similar lines: from time to time I've heard "Attorney" used as a title (as in "Attorney Smith"). The speakers were African-American, either less-well-off clients or support staff, in the northeast and midwestern US. Can anybody tell me anything about this?
Philip said,
May 17, 2010 @ 1:12 pm
Dudes, c'mon!
Rembrandt Q. Einstein said,
May 17, 2010 @ 2:23 pm
Clare said,
"The New York Times reporting on Iggy Pop's induction in the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. They referred to him as Mr Pop throughout the article. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/arts/music/16rock.html
I think both instances felt condescending, intended or otherwise."
This reminds me of an item on the Rachel Maddow Show about a tiff between Fat Joe and Daddy Yankee, in which she referred to the former as "Mr. Joe". Obviously her intention was humorous, and that's how "Mr. Pop" sounds to me.
Taeyoung said,
May 17, 2010 @ 2:45 pm
Re: Mr. Punch:
""Doctor" is of course an insult in academic life, at least in America, as it draws attention to the addressee's lack of a professorial title. "
Is it? Is there a regional variation? For many years (as a student) I addressed all professors as "Doctor," and only later learned that the custom was to address them as "Professor" (or use no honorifics at all). At one point, I had a vague notion that it might have been a Southern/Texan thing that I learned when I was very young. That, or it might just be carried over from Korean or something.
Re: Mr. Badger:
"The "sir" as used by American police officers seems like a good example of this "impolite politeness" — a command like "Get out the car, sir" is basically "Get out of the car, scum" — they are in no way being deferential to the target, even not the feigned deference that waiters display by "sir"."
This is something that irritates me about public servants in general — they have a bad attitude vis-a-vis the public they are supposed to be serving. Unfortunately, giving them style guides that tell them to address people politely won't work, because their whole attitude towards the citizenry — expressed through body language and tone of voice — is one of hostility and contempt. In daily life, I encounter this most often with public transit workers, rather than policemen, but they have a similarly aggressive attitude. I understand there are similar problems with post office workers.
James Kabala said,
May 17, 2010 @ 5:07 pm
Mr. Punch's claim is a new one to me as well. If anything, it is often the reverse: "Professor X" might be taken to imply (rightly or wrongly) that Professor X has not earned a Ph.D. I think the culture on this varies from school to school, but I never heard Mr. Punch's version before.
Someone should mention Homer Simpson's remark: "Just once, I'd like to be called 'Sir' without it being followed with "you're making a scene.'"
Gordon Campbell said,
May 17, 2010 @ 7:50 pm
The meanings of 'Professor' and 'Doctor' are very different from country to country. In the UK and Australia (at least), professor is a very high academic rank. Only department heads and very senior academics are called professor. On the other hand, most teaching staff are doctors. In the U.S, however, almost everyone who teaches in tertiary education is a professor. Many people are not aware of this difference — I'm sure it has led to some awkward social situations. Then again, a bit of confusion about who should get what degree of forelock tugging has to be a good thing.
nbm said,
May 17, 2010 @ 9:49 pm
Somebody — and it's going to be me — has got to register what a massive pain in the ass Frank Deford is. Every week another whine, another law laid down about nothing: the Utterly Pointless Sports Prescriptivist. Ptui.
At the swanky university I attended a couple of decades ago, the professors were all called Mr. or Ms. whatever — not Doctor, because of course they all had Ph.D.s so why bother to mention it, and anyway isn't it just too gauche? Ditto for Professor as a term of address. At least that was what I figured.
And I definitely brooded when I stopped being called "miss" and became a "ma'am."
Jerry Friedman said,
May 18, 2010 @ 1:24 am
No one has mentioned the ersatz-respectful Rat Pack usage that's probably still going. "And now, ladies and gentlemen, it is my great privilege to introduce a close personal friend, and one of America's funniest men, Mr. Joey Bishop!" At least that's what I remember.
@Mr. Violence: Thanks for checking the NYT for me. (I was tired when I posted that last night.) I understand that nobody uses Mr. or Ms. for athletes when talking about their play, but the two-style system strikes me as silly.
@Mr. Campbell: A great deal of tertiary education in the U.S. is done by grad students and some by people with doctorates below any "professor" rank.
At the swanky college I went to, we all said Professor to professors and Doctor to non-professors with doctorates, except that preceptors with doctorates could get away with introducing themselves by first name, and none of us would suspect a thing.
At Los Alamos National Laboratory, where I used to work, nobody is called doctor except M.D.s. This is sacred tradition, as it goes back to 1943, and they don't have any traditions older than that. Of course, when the Lab director testifies before Congress, the Senators or Representatives call him Dr. Anastasio to emphasize their good manners and the contrast between this ivory-tower academic and their ordinary, practical, down-home selves (with J.D.s).
@Nickp: I don't think I've ever heard a child address a friend's parent as "Johnny's daddy". Is that regional, or am I just out of touch?
Ginger Yellow said,
May 18, 2010 @ 5:07 am
Newsreaders and interviewers on the BBC now almost never use titles, not even "Mister," "Mrs" or "Ms", let alone "Mister Prime Minister", not when speaking of people nor to them. As a consequence, allegedly-harsh interviewers such as Jeremy Paxman sound merely rude to American or Australian ears, not sharp or intelligent.
It's not uncommon for the English lobby press, when they're badgering the PM over something, to use first names. I kind of wish someone in the US press would do that to the president, just to see the shocked reaction.
In general, the US press's use of titles is one of the big stumbling blocks for me as a British reader – probably third only to the long and often boring headlines, and the over the top aversion to printing rude words. It really contributes to the generally stuffy feel that most US papers have.
Colin John said,
May 18, 2010 @ 8:24 am
My wife is a secondary school teacher in the UK in her 50s, but the accepted polite form of address for her as for all female teachers in that school is 'Miss', as in 'I saw you with your husband, Miss'. Some schools have other rules, but I suspect that the practice is pretty common.
Colin John said,
May 18, 2010 @ 8:25 am
My wife is a secondary school teacher in the UK in her 50s, but the accepted polite form of address for her, as for all female teachers in that school, is 'Miss', as in 'I saw you with your husband, Miss'. Some schools have other rules, but I suspect that the practice is pretty common.
Ginger Yellow said,
May 18, 2010 @ 12:15 pm
Heh. Classic example of what I'm talking about in terms of headline style in today's NYT: "Candidate’s Words on Vietnam Service Differ From History". Seriously?
Ed said,
May 18, 2010 @ 3:01 pm
There was a New York Times sports columnist who insisted on calling Pele "Edison Arantes do Nascimento", on the grounds that he was an adult and when dealing with adults you really should use more than one name.
Clare said,
May 18, 2010 @ 3:30 pm
I agree with Ginger Yellow. As an Australian reader, I find the US press — and perhaps Americans generally — almost farcical in their use of titles — so much so that if they made a joke with Mr. Iggy Pop (who would have surely been addressed as 'sir' had he been arrested later that night), it would be (and perhaps was) lost on me. Had the BBC or The Australian made the same joke, however, I might have got it.
(Off topic and w/r/t tolerance for rude words in the UK and the US, some people might recall the TV commercial for Australian tourism featuring the charming slogan "where the bloody hell are you?". It was canned in North America on account of "hell", and in Britain too, but there on account of "bloody". But perhaps television standards are different from those that apply to the printed word.)
John said,
May 18, 2010 @ 7:23 pm
At the northeastern LAC I teach at, Dr is more commonly heard from students than Prof. Colleagues say it shows more respect to those of us with degrees than Prof which any ol' adjunct can be called. At the much more elite LAC I went to, I don't think I ever heard Dr.
My preference is for Prof, then Mr then Dr, which I'm pretty sure puts me in a distinct minority. (My sense is that the preference for Mr comes from England, perhaps even English prep schools, though I may be making that up.)
In older papers in my field, women were routinely called Miss or Mrs So-and-so, though I have the distinct idea that many of them had PhDs. I'm not so sure that they had academic positions though.
I am trying to called medical doctors physicians instead of doctors, though again I suspect I am in the minority. I don't mind addressing them as Dr, but that's mainly in the absence of an adequate substitute that doesn't require a concomitant use of their surname.
Koorbloh said,
May 18, 2010 @ 7:48 pm
When a policeman calls a recently collared thug "Sir," he is being obviously ironic. But it doesn't appear ironic that many media now appear to increasingly prefer "gentleman" to "man." As is: "The gentleman was apprehended after he robbed the convenience store." Is this just a genteelism? Or is it actually becoming impolite to refer to an individual as a "man?" For example, if I were talking to a clerk in a store and wished to refer to one of his colleagues, nowadays I would be tempted to say something like "I was speaking to that gentleman over there,and he said…." And at the same time I would feel annoyed at what I had just said…..
Gordon Campbell said,
May 19, 2010 @ 12:10 am
In Australia, most university students call their teachers 'Dave' (except when their teachers have a different name).
Alon Lischinsky said,
May 19, 2010 @ 8:22 am
I wonder whether the fixed phrase "with all due respect" is not a sort of fossilized impolite politeness device.
@GM: in my native Spanish the V form is never used for children, not even while scolding, but markers of formality do crop up, and these double as politeness devices in other occasions. I suppose the overall effect is very much like using "young lady" as a vocative in English.
Alan Palmer said,
May 19, 2010 @ 11:14 am
The UK press tends to use the first name and last name of sportspersons, with no honorific. The reporters (or their sub-editors) do seem to have a horror of repeating themselves, though, so if the article demands identifying the person again later in the article, they will use all sorts of subterfuges to avoid repeating the name. For instance, an article will first refer to "Arsène Wenger", then "Wenger". Later on he will perhaps be called "the Frenchman" and "the Arsenal manager". Sometimes these tricks can be quite esoteric, and confusing to the occasional reader, who might not know the nationality (for example) of the subject.
As John Walden said earlier, in the days of the differentation between amateurs and professionals, amateurs were always referred as "Mr Brown" and professionals as simply "Brown". Now that virtually all sports (with the exception of golf and some horse races) no longer maintain any distinction, and haven't for fifty years or so, that has gone by the wayside.
Jerry Friedman said,
May 19, 2010 @ 12:42 pm
@Gordon Campbell: I thought Australian professors… I'd better shut up.
@Alon Lischinsky: Lincoln Canfield said, in the U. of Chicago Spanish-English dictionary maybe 20 years ago, that many people in Colombia use the V form even to children and animals. I've heard that about Chihuahuans, too, and I feel sure I've heard it here once or twice, as "Deme la mano" to a child who had to reach up to hold his or her father's hand. (There are lots of immigrants from Chihuahua here in New Mexico.)
ohwilleke said,
May 19, 2010 @ 4:45 pm
It would be interesting to see how much hierarchy grammar is hidden away in English useage which is usually described as lacking levels of politness features found in, for example, French, or at a much more extreme level, Japanese.
I recall one wit, writing about social class, that formality in address comes in the middle of the social hierarchy, while informality reigns at the top and the bottom in parallel ways. The CEO might call both the porter and his fellow CEO "Bob", while calling a middle manager "Mr. Smithes."
It reminds me of distinctions previous discovered regarding the contexts when one pronounces "The" as "thuh" or "thee" in spoken English, or the distinction between the pronunciation of "-ed" (usually with an almost inaudible "e" as in "tried" but sometimes pronounced, "my beloved son").
Gordon Campbell said,
May 19, 2010 @ 7:21 pm
@Jerry Friedman: No, it's only the philosophy professors who are called Bruce.
Chargone said,
May 20, 2010 @ 10:35 am
in the schools i attended, in New Zealand, the male teachers were always 'Mr. (family name)' and the female teachers 'miss (family name)' or 'mrs. (family name)' as applicable. Exceptions were rare, but did exist. i had a music teacher who's family name was Roberts. insisted on being called 'Mr. Bob'. likewise students probably won't switch from 'miss (maiden name)' to 'mrs (married name)' for a woman who was their teacher before getting married. at least, not until the end of the year, anyway. (new students get to learn the appropriate one though :D)
reporters on tv tend to refer to each other by first names, but the people they're interviewing are always addressed as 'Mr/Miss/Mrs (family name)' when named. the exception being ministers, who often get 'minister' or 'prime minister', when their position is relevant to the subject at hand. that said, some shows are less formal than others, and in the less formal ones the host May address the interviewee, even the prime minister, by their first name. though i've noticed that that tends to go with a significant shift in tone, and is more likely if the host and guest are around the same age. (i've heard it as both a 'come on, we're all friends here, you can tell us' thing and a simple 'yeah, we're being relaxed and informal here' thing.)
it is normal to introduce someone in an informal setting simply by whatever form they useually prefer to be addressed by, but in formal situations full name and title are usual. (the prime minister is introduced as 'Prime Minister John Key', some random man on the street would be 'mr john smith', someone with a degree or title would have that used instead of 'Mr.'.
pay attention here though and you'll find that it is quite normal to simply not use a person's name at all except to get their attention, unless there would be confusion as to who you're speaking to.
it's not 'excuse me, sir' but 'excuse me' when going past someone in a narrow space. in the car light example someone mentioned earlier, it'd usually just be 'hey, your rear lights aren't working'. you do get 'thanks, mate' though. 'mate' is a positive generic term of address, so far as i can tell. Even shop assistants won't usually call you 'sir' or anything like that. they'll just be friendly and helpful. (or not. heh.)
of course, letters from companies and government departments are still addressed to 'Mr/Mrs/Miss/Master (initials or personal name(s)) (family name)', letters to the editor and generic form letters are 'dear sir' or 'dear sir/madam' or things to that effect.
as for the sports article in question, normally the interviewer would give the person's name in the question, and the interviewee would simply use a pronoun in response.
if memory serves, in both sports and regular news people have their first personal and family name used the first time they are mentioned in an article, along with their position or title (Except mr/mrs/miss/master), and are then subsequently referred to as 'Mr/Mrs/Miss' whatever their family name is. though if their position related title is significant enough it might be used in isolation (the mayor, the prime minister, the queen.)
mmm… think that's all i have to say about that :D don't know what it's like in university, because i've never attended, but i seem to remember a friend saying that lecturers always have very formal titles (at least in his department) and tutors are usually much more informal.
Chargone said,
May 20, 2010 @ 10:41 am
bah, forgot a couple of bits above: first off, after being introduced the first time, in sports news, the titles Do get dropped.
second, the bit about letters should say 'initials of personal name(s)' not 'or' … though sometimes there's a mix used ('Mr. Bill D. Sanders' is as likely as 'Mr. Bill Sanders' or 'Mr. B D Sanders', though noticeably additional personal names after the first are not normally written out in full, despite Not having a second one being remarkable.)
comment editing buttons are your friend, but I'm not seeing one, so, double post. so sad.
Alon said,
May 21, 2010 @ 2:22 am
@Jerry Friedman: there is ample regional variation in T/V distinctions in Spanish. I was making a point about my own (Rio de la Plata) variety, as I have not had any substantial exposure to child scolding in any other, but I am certain this is bound to vary (if only because other dialects completely supress the distinction, as does Costa Rican Spanish, which has dispensed with the T forms and now uses V throughout, or introduce additional ones, as does Uruguayan Spanish, which offers a choice between "vos", "tú" and "usted").
That said, using V forms for intimate family sounds distinctly old-fashioned to me– just like calling one's spouse "vous" in French, that last refuge of the stuffy haute bourgeoisie.
Wandering Justin said,
May 21, 2010 @ 12:40 pm
@Jo
"Il Mister" as a form of address for football managers comes from English visitors who brought the sport to Italy. According to a book called The Miracle of Castel Di Sangro, the sport was introduced in the port city of Genoa.
I'd also like to know why "gaffer" is a synonym for "manager." Really, soccer is full of all sorts of fun stuff. Trying to read FourFourTwo can be hard for the unitiated because of all the regional vocab.
Fun fact – Football/soccer is called "il calcio" in Italian. Literally "the kicking."
Aaron Davies said,
May 23, 2010 @ 3:23 pm
misc thoughts
i'm reminded of a bit in the tv show Bones where dr. brennan refers to another character with a "Mr.". he's flattered until someone points out that that's her way of drawing attention to his lack of a doctorate.
in singapore, the newspapers often refer to women as "Madam" ("Mdm" in abbreviation), and i've seen forms that offer "Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss/Mdm" as available titles. i suppose this is some relative of the tradition that gave us "Madame Chiang" for Chiang Kai-shek's wife Soong May-ling?
@Nickp: the only teachers of mine i ever addressed by first name were at a Quaker school, where i assume it was very much deliberate that we did so, and did so without any titles. the only other teacher i ever had that i addressed by anything other than "Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms Lastname" went by a nickname based on her last name. that one was used without a title, but even there, was almost exclusively in reference, not address.
the south park character "big gay al" has occasionally been referred to in formal contexts in the show as "mr. al"
speaking of age-related title distinctions, there are quite a few jokes in anime about single women in their late twenties taking great exception to being called "obasan" ("auntie") by children. (they want to be called "oneesan" ("big sis") instead.) i suppose similar jokes set a couple decades up must exist about women who'd rather be "obasan" than "obaasan" ("grannie"), but i must not watch the right sort of anime to see them…
there's a monty python sketch involving an interviewer spending most of the interview increasing the informality with which he addresses the interviewee, moving from "sir edward ross" through "edward", "ted", "eddie baby", miscellaneous lovers' pet names, and then, in quick succession and for no apparent reason, "Frank", "Fran", "Frannie", and "little Frannie-pooh".
i frequently read "mate" as hostile when coming to me from kiwi colleagues at my last job, but that may been purely contextual. (it was usually something like "look mate, that won't work.")
Private Zydeco said,
May 29, 2010 @ 3:02 am
At last, the spoils: none have harkened to the once-trendy "pop" nor its oft-heard alter-variant "pops" in this entire post! What squares!!!
The nature of "pop" seems to be a subtle one, but, like cartain other honorifics has origins in filiopietistic usage, a "Daddy" and "Daddy-o",
"old man", and others.