"It doesn't entirely unjibe"
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Jane Velez-Michell interviews Amy Bishop's friend Rob Dinsmore (this segment begins about 4:58 into the video clip embedded after the jump):
| JV-M | So police say, Rob, they called nine one one on the neighborhood kids a whole bunch of times, that she stopped an ice cream truck from coming into the neighborhood, she was upset about the dirt bikes, about the uh motorized bikes, about any bikes, um and she would- apparently they would even videotape the kids in their neighborhood uh to try to intimidate them. Now does that jibe with the person you know? | |
| RD: | Um it doesn't entirely unjibe. The um she used to complain about that neighborhood all the time, and now it's a very insular little neighborhood, it's like a a little circular drive or a- a cul-de-sac or something, the way I remember it, … |
According to the OED, jibe is an American invention, of obscure origin ("perh. phonetically related to chime"), meaning "To chime in (with); to be in harmony or accord; to agree".
There don't seem to be any prior uses of the form unjibe on the web, though perhaps I haven't searched diligently enough. It makes perfect sense in this context.
[Hat tip to reader MLR.]
Mark P said,
February 19, 2010 @ 11:35 am
Saying it doesn't "unjibe" seems to make more sense than saying it "doesn't not jibe."
I wonder if there is any relation between this use of jibe and the sailing term; I could force some kind of relationship, but it doesn't come easily. I also can't see any relationship to this use and "gibe (also jibe)" as one of my dictionaries gives.
Harriet said,
February 19, 2010 @ 12:24 pm
As I don't see an "Ask Language Log" option here, I am wondering if I can pose a question here about the backforming of a different word. I have noticed that the word "versus" ubiquitously appearing as a verb among my 8-year-old son's friends and teammates, as in "Who is your team versing today?" I'm curious about the origins and geographical reach of this usage, which I've only started hearing in the last year or two. More recently, I've heard adults use it as well, generally the parents of the aforementioned children. Is this unique to our Chicago exurb? Is it generated by children? Has anyone else heard this?
Eric S said,
February 19, 2010 @ 2:07 pm
"Jibe" seems to be a relatively simple /v/->/b/ from "jive", semantically equivalent in this case.
It's possible the sound change occurred because "jive" is so frequently followed by "with" (as it is here), the pair [bw] is easier to articulate than [vw], and the consonant in question seems to occur at relatively low volume.
It's also possible that the interviewer said ji[v]e (very difficult to hear or see in this video) and the interviewee, while intending unji[v]e, simply misarticulated the consonant. This is more likely since he was being interviewed on television, probably increasing his stress level generally and making him more self-conscious specifically about his speech.
In fact, this stress could also provide a partial explanation for his using this (already relatively productive) prefix in an unprecedented way.
AlexTheSeal said,
February 19, 2010 @ 2:08 pm
My first thought was that the OED is wrong (perish the thought) and that this is a variation on "jive."
[(myl) One big problem: jive isn't attested before 1928, whereas the citations for jibe (in the relevant sense) start in 1813.]
Eric S said,
February 19, 2010 @ 2:47 pm
> (myl) One big problem: jive isn't attested before 1928,
> whereas the citations for jibe (in the relevant sense)
> start in 1813.
It's deeply unlikely that texts from hundreds of years ago had any impact on these speakers' behavior. Ji[v]e may itself be historically derived from an earlier ji[b]e through another (very believable) sound change, but ji/v/e almost certainly occurs with significantly higher frequency in modern speakers' lexicons than ji/b/e.
[(myl) But in this case, the meaning and structure are exactly appropriate for the traditional meaning of "jibe", and not appropriate for the various typical senses of "jive", and the pronunciation of both the parties sounds like "jibe" rather than "jive" — they meant "jibe" and they said "jibe", as far as I can tell. So why is the relationship of "jibe" to "jive" even at issue?]
Amy Stoller said,
February 19, 2010 @ 3:29 pm
I hear and see "jive" when people clearly mean "jibe." The meanings of "jive" are very different from that of "jibe," although I suppose at some point "jive" will come to be a legit variant of "jibe."
@Eric S: "It's possible the sound change occurred because "jive" is so frequently followed by "with" (as it is here), the pair [bw] is easier to articulate than [vw], and the consonant in question seems to occur at relatively low volume."
When is "jive" followed by "with"? I have never heard or seen this other than from people who clearly mean "jibe," so I question your assertion that "jive" is frequently followed by "with." Things "jibe with" other things. They never "jive with" other things – unless they are also "jukin'." I suppose one could go "jukin' and jivin'" with someone else – but in any case, that would mean something entirely different than what one means by "jibe with."
I think you may have been hearing people say "jibe with" and assuming they said "jive with."
non-sequitur, right before bedtime said,
February 19, 2010 @ 3:48 pm
Versing greens weirdage?
Eric S said,
February 19, 2010 @ 4:51 pm
> at some point "jive" will come to be a legit variant of "jibe."
What does "legit" mean?
Speakers already use ji[v]e in this way, much more frequently in my experience than they use ji[b]e.
> They never "jive with" other things
"Never", like it's "never correct" to use it this way? Or "never" like speakers never use it this way?
The former is prescriptive and therefore irrelevant. And you'd have to provide an awful lot of data to prove that speakers "never" do something.
> I have never heard or seen this other than
> from people who clearly mean "jibe,"
What do you mean they "clearly mean" it? That they intended to articulate [b] and articulated [v] by physical accident, or that they said [v] because they have /v/ "incorrectly" stored in their lexicon?
If the former, it's not "clear" that they meant to articulate [b], because they in fact articulated [v] and the only evidence you have of physical intent is the sounds they made. And it's likely that if the speaker erred enough in their pronunciation to think that they had mispronounced a [b] as [v], they would have repaired. A non-repaired [v] is actually pretty good evidence that they have /v/ there.
The latter is prescriptive and, again, irrelevant.
> I think you may have been hearing people say
> "jibe with" and assuming they said "jive with."
I could make the analogous assertion about you. Neither of us has used sophisticated hardware/software to collect these data, so let's dispense with the ad hominem.
In my experience, in the southeast United States, 100% of the time I heard this phrase used in this sense, it was articulated with a [v]. Perhaps there's some geographical isolation to this pronunciation, but you'd have to show me real audio data collected from modern speakers to convince me of that.
But that may be the reason people started using ji[v]e in this sense in the first place: an obvious semantic connection with a minor phonetic distinction.
Eric S said,
February 19, 2010 @ 5:50 pm
myl wrote:
> So why is the relationship of "jibe" to "jive" even at issue?
Because I misunderstood your post :)
I thought you were curious about the [b] *and* the prefix, instead of just the prefix. My mistake.
Will said,
February 19, 2010 @ 6:29 pm
Interesting, until now I'd always assumed "jive" was just a spelling/pronunciation variation on "jibe"; they were stored under the same lexical entry in my head. I had no idea jive was it's own word with a separate meaning.
Benjamin Zimmer said,
February 19, 2010 @ 7:48 pm
@Harriet: Re versing… Here is a 2004 post of mine on the American Dialect Society mailing list with Usenet citations back to 1995. I'll try to write up something more substantial on this.
[(amz) And a 2005 entry in the Eggcorn Database, here.]
dazeystarr said,
February 19, 2010 @ 8:02 pm
Not here to defend Amy Stoller, as I'm sure she's more than capable of doing so herself, but to address a couple of things in Eric S's posts:
I think "legit" here means "accepted as standard usage by lexicographers". At the moment "jive" meaning "accord with" is a non-standard variant of "jibe". Reference material confirms this.
I would postulate that the (increasing?) use of this variant is related to greater frequency of use of the separate word "jive".
You know, as in "Oh stewardess, I speak jive!" That's a quote from Airplane!, which is a funny movie. Humor is good.
J. Goard said,
February 19, 2010 @ 11:41 pm
I guess we're moving away from the OP's interest in the prefix, but…
Like Eric, I pretty much exclusively use "jive" in this sense, and "jibe" to mean only 'tease, ridicule'. Before this post, I had a vague awareness that other people used "jibe" like my community uses "jive", but I wouldn't have been able to tell you which one was prescriptively accepted.
Dean said,
February 20, 2010 @ 12:32 am
On 'versing'.
Native to Boston suburbs.
I remember it being used regularly on my soccer team in elementary school. (I'm 24 now.)
Amy Stoller said,
February 20, 2010 @ 1:08 pm
@ Eric S:
"What does "legit" mean?"
It means "legitimate," and by extension, as dazeystarr kindly said, "accepted as standard usage" – not just by lexicographers, but by people who are – like me – old enough to remember the original meanings of "jive."
"Speakers already use ji[v]e in this way, much more frequently in my experience than they use ji[b]e."
Which is why I suppose, as I said, that at some point "jive" will come to be a legit variant of "jibe."
> They never "jive with" other things
" "Never", like it's "never correct" to use it this way?" "
Yes.
The former is prescriptive and therefore irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant to me. Nor is it irrelevant to others, who, like me. So who's being prescriptive now? Get the mote out of your own eye. I didn't say it couldn't or shouldn't be an accepted usage. I said it isn't yet.
" "I have never heard or seen this other thanfrom people who clearly mean "jibe,"
"What do you mean they "clearly mean" it? That they intended to articulate [b] and articulated [v] by physical accident, or that they said [v] because they have /v/ "incorrectly" stored in their lexicon?"
The latter, as should be clear by now.
My understanding of the meaning of jive is based on the fact that many, many people in my family are in the music business; that I grew up in the 1960s in a multiracial city; and that my interest (a lay interest, as I have always admitted) began pretty much along with my acquisition of speech at about age one, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. I know the difference between the meaning of jibe and the meanings of jive, and I am sorry to see them conflated. Not suicidal, just sorry. I'll get over it. There are many such developments that bother me not a whit, but for the aforementioned reasons, the distinction between jibe and jive isn't one of them.
You are not obliged to agree with my opinions at any time.
Amy Stoller said,
February 20, 2010 @ 1:14 pm
Sorry, there's an oddly unfinished sentence above: "Nor is it irrelevant to others, who, like me." That's what happens when I post while under-caffeinated. Let's take it to read: "Nor is it irrelevant to others who are aware of the distinction, albeit an eroding one, between jibe and jive." Or something like that.
Eric S, I often glory in the shape-shifting of language; this particular issue just hits me where I live. I think jibe and jive have a distinction worth preserving, but as I said, I'll get over it.
Amy Stoller said,
February 20, 2010 @ 2:38 pm
Oh, and for whatever it may be worth, I'm un-fuddy-duddy enough to like "unjibe."
Sandra Wilde said,
February 20, 2010 @ 10:08 pm
OMG, I've always thought it was "gibe." I'm really confused now.
J.W. Brewer said,
February 21, 2010 @ 11:31 am
1. I can't recall ever noticing "jive" substituting for "jibe" in "jibe with" meaning "be consistent with, but I see wiktionary is aware of this substitution. To the extent it's a Southernism it may be relevant that I've never lived further south than the very un-Southern (linguistically and culturally) environs of Arlington, Va. I have always assumed that "jibe" in the sense of "jibe with" was somehow related to the nautical usage (with the lovely warning phrase "jibe ho!" I learned as a boy messing around with small sailboats on, of all places [pace GKP], the Inland Sea in Japan), but I can't recall where I got that assumption and can't immediately construct a semantic just-so story about how that might have worked.
2. The double-negation of "doesn't unjibe" reminds me of my own not infrequent usage of "not inconsistent with" in lieu of "consistent with." The latter is approx. 96 times more common in COCA. I think of my own usage as perhaps a lawyerism (with the useful-but-perhaps-overused reflex to hedge any statement that otherwise sounds too unqualified), and I expect the Orwellian faction of prescriptivists might condemn it as of a piece with "a not unblack dog" and so on. But I use it nonetheless. It may be easier to insert a further hedge in the double-negated structure, e.g. one could make "not entirely unjibe" sound less vernacular by rephrasing as "not entirely inconsistent with."
Mr Punch said,
February 21, 2010 @ 9:16 pm
"Versing" — I've been hearing it for 10+ years here (Boston area); early on I believe I was told it was Australian usage.
Older said,
February 21, 2010 @ 10:42 pm
"Versing" was common with kids on teams at least as long ago as the 60s, when I had kids. I told my kids it was the result of a misunderstanding, but peer pressure was too much for them. I don't think they use it as adults though.
As for "jive", it is replacing "jibe" in many cases, in the same way that people now say "by in large", and I'm sure most of us could think of other examples. Careless listening (grumble grumble, old-folks attitude, etc).
Neal Whitman said,
February 23, 2010 @ 9:42 pm
Harriet: I've blogged about versing here and here.