Oyster / persimmon rice in Bangkok
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The Chinese says shìzǐmǐ 柿子米 ("persimmon rice").
That didn't seem to match anything else on the menu.
It didn't take me long to notice, however, that the Japanese word for "oyster rice", right below the Chinese, is kaki han かき飯.
That is one way you could say "oyster rice" in Japanese, but homophonously it is also one way you could say "persimmon rice". Oysters and persimmons are both favorite food items for the autumn season, so wouldn't that lead to confusion?
Japanese can transcribe "oyster" with katakana as oisutā オイスター.
Oysters are also commonly referred to as "sea milk" (umi no miruku), a metaphorical approach.
Japanese variants of kaki meaning "oyster" are 牡蠣、牡蛎、牡蠇、蠣、蛎、蠇, all pronounced kaki カキ (source), thus homophonous with the Japanese word for persimmon. But graphemically they are all borrowings from Chinese, where phonemically they are miles apart: in Mandarin mǔlì, mǔlì, mǔlì, lì, lì, lì.
The Japanese being among the world's greatest connoisseurs of fresh seafood, especially uncooked (nama 生), I am mystified (not quite stupefied) that they don't have their own clear-cut, indigenous term for "oyster". Maybe they do, but I don't know it.
One of the best known raw oyster varieties are the small "Kumamoto" (a name we are familiar with from linguistics [Khotanese]), known affectionately as "Kumies", characterized by their mild, sweet, and nutty flavor.
There are lots of other intricate issues on this menu board, so many that I can't go into all of them now.
Selected readings
"Steamed native" (5/30/14)
"French seafood shucking soon" (11/1/13)
[Thanks to Kirinputra]
Philip Taylor said,
May 2, 2026 @ 2:47 pm
"Kumamoto" […] , known affectionately as "Kumies" — known where, Victor. I ask because I associate the "-ies" suffix with the English language (babies, bullies, fairies, smarties, walkies, …) — does the same sound convey a similar meaning in Japanese ?
F said,
May 2, 2026 @ 3:44 pm
They do have a clear-cut indigenous term for oyster: kaki. It has different pitch accent from the likewise indigenous term for persimmon, but this is not reflected in writing.
Victor Mair said,
May 2, 2026 @ 5:10 pm
Thank you, F. I had earlier come across this information on AIO, but neglected to include it in the orifinal post:
In Japanese, kaki (かき) is used for both persimmon and oyster simply because they are homonyms—words that sound the same but have different meanings, likely due to coincidental linguistic evolution rather than a direct connection. They are distinguished by kanji, pitch accent, or context, often differentiated by saying kudamono no kaki (fruit) or kai no kaki (shellfish).Key Differences and Details:Persimmon (柿): Pronounced with a flat accent or higher on the second syllable (kaKI), these are a staple autumn fruit often dried (hoshigaki).Oyster (牡蠣): Pronounced with a lower pitch on the second syllable (KAki), these are a popular winter delicacy.The Coincidence: While the exact reason is not definitively known, some theories suggest that the word for oyster may have derived from kaku (to scratch/gather from rocks), whereas the fruit name has separate, ancient roots.Distinction: Although spelled similarly in romanized letters, Japanese speakers generally know which one is being referred to by context or minor regional differences in pronunciation.
KMH said,
May 2, 2026 @ 5:01 pm
The Thai word apparently translated as "oyster" in menu items 3, 4, and 6 is "คากิ"–pig's feet (http://www.thai-language.com/id/158500)!
KMH said,
May 2, 2026 @ 5:50 pm
Here's the etymology I found for คากิ (http://legacy.orst.go.th/?knowledges=%E0%B8%84%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%B4-%E0%B9%92-%E0%B8%AA%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%AB%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%84%E0%B8%A1-%E0%B9%92%E0%B9%95%E0%B9%95%E0%B9%95):
""Kaki" originates from the Teochew Chinese word " Tuer Kaki," meaning "pig's feet and legs," but it's often shortened to "Kaki." Chinese people commonly use the whole pig's leg, including the feet, in dishes like soups or stir-fried with garlic and chili. Thai people might use it in Tom Yum soup, but the most popular use is in braised pork (Palo). When making braised pork leg, the leg is usually cut into two large pieces: an upper piece from the thigh to above the joint, and a lower piece from the joint to the tip of the foot. This prevents the meat from separating even after long braising. Therefore, the lower part of the braised pork leg still has the foot attached to the leg. The Teochew Chinese thus called it " Kaki," meaning "feet and legs," or "feet attached to the leg." Over time, the meaning of "Kaki" has narrowed to refer only to edible pig's feet. Kaki is a food high in gelatin, making it suitable for those with hair and skin problems.
Source: Radio program "Knowing and Loving the Thai Language," broadcast on the Radio Thailand station on August 2, 2012, from 7:00-7:30 AM."
Jim Breen said,
May 2, 2026 @ 8:44 pm
There are dozens of terms in the Japanese lexicon with the pronunciation "kaki"; oysters and persimmons are just among the more common ones.
While kana is mainly used for oysters, the 牡蠣 kanji form is quite common. There is also a kokuji (kanji form created in Japan) for oyster/kaki of 硴, but it's rarely used.
Tod McQuillin said,
May 2, 2026 @ 10:00 pm
かき is the clear-cut indigenous word for oyster. The kanji 牡蠣 were only applied later, in a process called jukujikun (熟字訓), when the word かき, a native Japanese word was already in common use.
KIRINPUTRA said,
May 2, 2026 @ 10:01 pm
I was looking for the exact source word in Teochew and couldn’t find one. I still figure it comes from Teochew too though — partly because I’m pretty sure such a word doesn’t exist in Hokkien, which is more of a donor for Thai than most realise (and the South is bigger on the pork leg rice plates than the heartland).
What’s wild is that on top of this word being borrowed into Thai phonetically, whoever typed up that menu straightaway gave up on a Japanese translation and just flipped it into kana — then based the English & Mandarin translations on different alt. readings of the Japanese!!
Jonathan Smith said,
May 3, 2026 @ 12:07 am
probably this "คากิ" does mean 'oyster' and comes from Japanese… the "คากิ" mentioned by KMH may be a close (?) homophone and orthographically similar~identical, but it doesn't look like that item it would make sense here… Thai expertise needed
KIRINPUTRA said,
May 3, 2026 @ 4:00 am
This is great! What hangtime. คากิ is a slightly different “cut“ of pork leg than what you usually get in a plate of ข้าวขาหมู. If you look at the picture, you can see it’s not oysters. I’ve never seen “oyster rice” in maritime Thailand, and if it existed it wouldn’t be sold at a ข้าวขาหมู counter….
Chris Button said,
May 3, 2026 @ 7:07 am
The classic kakí, kàki, kakì distinction. Much like the equally classic hashí, hàshi, hashì distinction.
And continuing this discussion, note how hashí and hashì can't devoice the /i/, while hàshi can.
KMH said,
May 3, 2026 @ 7:39 am
For what it's worth, "shellfish" in Thai is "หอย" (/haawy/).
"Oyster" specifically is "หอยนางรม" (/haawy naang rohm/).
KMH said,
May 3, 2026 @ 8:16 am
This seems to be the source of the borrowing into Thai: 豬腳 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%B1%AC%E8%85%B3).
Synonyms
(Hokkien, Teochew) 豬跤／猪跤 (ti-kha)
(Hokkien) 豬跤節／猪跤节
(Cantonese (pig's front trotters)) 豬手／猪手 (zhūshǒu)
For pronunciation and definitions of 豬腳 – see 豬跤 (“pig's foot; pork leg”).
(This term is a variant form of 豬跤).
Frnk L Chance said,
May 3, 2026 @ 10:31 am
I would probably rea " かき飯" as"kakimehi" rather than "kaihan," bit the ambiguity remains.
KIRINPUTRA said,
May 3, 2026 @ 10:52 am
Teochew TṲ-KHA / TU-KHA is not the source of คากิ, which would be KHA-KIH in the same (Teochew) romanisation. Also, คากิ is 10 baht extra. -KHA must be the source of คา-, though.
Jonathan Smith said,
May 3, 2026 @ 11:26 am
Fascinating. KMH's etymology above says this term is shortened from "ตือคากิ"… if so it could be from something like a (Tw.) ti-kha-kiⁿ 豬脚羹 or ti-kha-kin 豬蹄筋 (or Teochew equivalent(s)…)
Jonathan Smith said,
May 3, 2026 @ 11:30 am
^ presumably Teochew equivalant or thereabouts I should say — the article says Teochew and uses ɯː in 'pig'…
Hiroshi Kumamoto said,
May 3, 2026 @ 6:21 pm
On Kumamoto Oysters, the website of the Kumamoto Prefecture Office has the following page:
https://www.pref.kumamoto.jp.e.qp.hp.transer.com/soshiki/94/106631.html?_ga=2.83203542.1176917606.1777849904-115177874.1777849903
This is the English version. For the original Japanese version (as well as Traditional and Simplified Chinese, Korean, French and Vietnamese ones) click the Foreign language menu at the Top Right.
Chris Button said,
May 3, 2026 @ 9:32 pm
In addition to かき飯 "kaki meshi" in #3, there is かきご飯 "kaki gohan" in #4.
And then in #6, hiragana かき "kaki" switches to katakana カキ "kaki" (which is probably more appropriate in any case).
石 "rock" 花 "flower" is quite evocative.
KIRINPUTRA said,
May 4, 2026 @ 1:20 am
@ Jonathan Smith
(The Teochew source of คากิ is not obvious and so….) A deeper & finer knowledge of Teochew itself and its various dialects is needed to get at the source.
A similar example is the etymology of pan-Philippine LI(Y)EMPO. See Wiktionary:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/liyempo#Tagalog
While sloppy, both theories are best guesses on the part of (AFAIK) functional dual native speakers of Tagalog & Hokkien — although a very different Hokkien from the probably source. If we indulge in such theories, we underestimate the complexity of language variation & language change while overestimating the sloppiness of borrowing. It may be that such chhìnchhái-ness when it comes to "the dialects" is part of what makes "Sinology" fun for many of us-that-should-know-better. BTW the source of LIEMPO is probably "lián-pō͘-", which has become obscure.
DDeden said,
May 4, 2026 @ 9:59 am
This post enlightened and confused me. To me, "kaki" refers to (English) 'cocky' or (Malay) 'kaki' foot/leg, which I had always assumed to relate to 'kasut' shoe. The Malay word has Proto-Austronesian roots, so wasn't recently borrowed from Thai or Teochew or Hokkien.
Chatgpt:
The Malay word kaki has its primary etymology rooted in the Proto-Malayic *kaki, which in turn stems from the Proto-Malayo-Polynesian *qaqay and ultimately the Proto-Austronesian *qaqay, all of which refer to "leg" or "foot". Here is a breakdown of its meanings and usage: Literal Meaning (Anatomy): In Modern Malay and Indonesian, kaki means leg or foot. Literal Meaning (Base): It is used to describe the base or lower part of an object, such as kaki meja (table leg) or kaki gunung (foot of a mountain). Idiomatic/Colloquial Meaning (Close Friend): In Malaysia and Singapore (Singlish), kaki is commonly used to mean a buddy, partner, or someone who shares a common interest or activity.Examples: "Makan kaki" (eating buddy), "Kopi kaki" (coffee drinking partner), "Mahjong kaki" (mahjong partner). Idiomatic Meaning (Fondness): Kaki can also indicate someone who is addicted to, or a regular participant in, a specific activity, such as kaki bola (football fan) or kaki judi (gambler). Related Compound Terms: It is used in terms like kakitangan (staff or helper), which literally combines kaki (leg) and tangan (hand) to signify workers. Note on Usage: While in some instances in Singapore it is used to mean "friend," it is distinct from, though sometimes confused with, the Hokkien/Teochew phrase ka-kī-lâng (家己人), meaning "one of us".
Victor Mair said,
May 4, 2026 @ 5:44 pm
@Philip Taylor:
A neighbor put this sign in her yard:
"Yorkies for adoption".
KIRINPUTRA said,
May 6, 2026 @ 4:15 am
@ DDeden
Intriguing possibility, that คากิ might come from Malay KAKI. Superficially, in that case, we'd expect *กากิ. But such a borrowing would've probably taken place centuries ago on the Isthmus, with a Kedah or Patani type of Malay on one side and an Isthmus dialect of Siamese or Hokkien (or both) on the other. But all this is doubtful if คากิ came from ตือคากิ. That would point to a Bangkok point of contact.
(There are fine points about the origins of the pork leg dishes — they skew Isthmus somewhat — and the local geography & dialectology of Malay, Siamese, Hokkien & Teochew that would have to be considered. And let's keep in mind the idea that Penang Hokkien is a Hokkien creole descended from a Malay creole, as well as the characteristics of Kelantan Peranakan Hokkien.)
KIRINPUTRA said,
May 6, 2026 @ 4:24 am
@ DDeden
Teochew KA-KĪ NÂNG is customarily 膠己人 in the sinographs; Hokkien KA-KĪ LÂNG is customarily 加忌人 (or 自己人). There is no etymological connection to either 家, 己, or even 人. The "original" form was probably *TĀ-TĪ LÂNG; in the Manila Incunabula we see an intermediate form with *TA̍K-.
I also wonder if Malay KAKI, Thai ขา (LOC: KHĀ), and Hoklo (Teochew, etc.) KHA 脚 might all be related. But the connection might be speculative at this point.