And vice versa respectively
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At some time approximately 30 to 35 years ago — that is, in the 1970s, back when disco had a future — I received a letter from my friend Jim Hurford. We were young lecturers then, me in London and him in Lancaster, though he was later to become Professor of General Linguistics at the University of Edinburgh. Here is what his letter asked me:
"Can you construct a grammatical and meaningful English sentence that ends with the words and vice versa, respectively ?"
Jim is now Professor Emeritus, and I now hold the Chair that he held for so many years, and I still have not succeeded in constructing an example of the mind-twistingly difficult sort he requested.
But Jim made the mistake of asking me many years before the Internet was invented. Today there is the web, and there are blogs, and comments areas, and there is Language Log. I am sure that our ingenious and talented readers — that would be you — will take up the challenge in the comments space below. If any of them should succeed, I will present the sentence to Jim, and take all the credit. (He will not read this post, because he is working busily on a book about the evolution of grammatical structures, and has no time for things like Language Log.) You (if you are the one who succeeds) will have the inward pleasure of knowing that you solved the puzzle. I will have the gratitude and admiration of my friend Jim. And Jim will have the example sentence he has so long sought. Doesn't that sound like a win-win-win scenario to you?
[Afterword: I don't know what reminded me of the puzzle Jim set all those years ago, or why it seemed so hard at the time, or what he thought would be the relevance of the structure. It is of course not a serious surprise that Language Log readers were able to solve it (see below). But it is perhaps a surprise that some of them completed it in less than ten minutes after the post went up on this site! What is particularly wonderful is that (of course, as JS Bangs was the first to point out) today we can simply Google up genuine examples from real texts. I didn't bother because I knew you would. The real point of this post is that thirty years has changed the nature of syntactic explorations beyond imagining. Back in the 1970s when we were young, you could have devoted your whole life optimistically scanning print sources and had only decades of disappointment for your pains. Today we have the trillion-word corpus of the web to search, and the entire investigation takes maybe eight seconds. (Incidentally, I'm deleting the comments that construct sentences that merely quote the phrase. If you allow quotations of ungrammatical bits and pieces to count, then instantly every string becomes grammatical and syntax is pointlessly trivialized. If you don't, then I think it turns out that nearly all word strings are ungrammatical.) —GKP]
G.E. Wilker said,
September 3, 2009 @ 4:33 pm
"The hundred-meter and five-hundred-meter races were the ones in which Mark finished immediately ahead of Victor, and vice versa, respectively."
It sounds stilted, but I don't think it contains any outright grammatical errors.
Vance Maverick said,
September 3, 2009 @ 4:33 pm
The theses of Geoff and Jim were that cats eat rats, and vice versa, respectively.
DEJ said,
September 3, 2009 @ 4:42 pm
interesting that geoff (and jim) could not construct an example for 30-35 years. two readers did it within nine minutes (respectively).
JS Bangs said,
September 3, 2009 @ 4:43 pm
This Google search seems to turn up plenty of real-world examples.
Nathan Myers said,
September 3, 2009 @ 4:48 pm
JS: FTW.
Eric P. said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:00 pm
This may be cheating, but I just can't resist:
The Latin phrases meaning "and so on" and "the other way around" are "et cetera" and "vice versa," respectively.
Tony said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:01 pm
Excerpt from Harper’s Index, September 2004:
Number of words in the first sentence of Bill Clinton’s memoir and in that of George W. Bush’s, respectively : 49, 5
Percentage of pages in Hillary Clinton’s memoir that mention her husband, and vice versa, respectively : 45, 20
Joshua said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:04 pm
Although, technically, "et cetera" means "and the rest". ;)
Spectre-7 said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:10 pm
I'm not entirely sure, but…
When Jeff and Harry married each other's mother, Harry became Jeff's stepfather, Jeff became Harry's stepson, and both vice versa, respectively.
Hmmm. It does seem that the vice versa should probably cover it, though.
Mike said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:15 pm
Examples of a typical and atypical interaction are a dog biting a man and vice versa, respectively.
john mcf said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:25 pm
Andy and Jim believe that UFOs exist, and that Fred hates Bert and vice versa, respectively
Z. D. Smith said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:25 pm
In the cases of the bakers and their brothers, I think the defendent should compensate the plaintiff, and vice versa, respectively.
Tim Silverman said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:28 pm
The trouble with all these, to my eye, is that it's too clear who is doing what to whom, and hence respectively is redundant. It's usually used where there's a serious potential ambiguity.
Morgan said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:30 pm
Spectre-7, the "Jeff became Harry's stepson" portion seems superfluous as it's implied by "Harry became Jeff's stepfather". Removing that also removes the need for "both".
I'd say Mike's example is the most natural so far.
Vance Maverick said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:31 pm
I'd defend my attempt, Tim, on the ground that withouth the "respectively", it sounds as though both people believe both claims.
Amy B said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:33 pm
I can win this contest or toggle the light switch by constructing a tortured sentence, or turning the switch off if it's on, and vice versa, respectively.
Spectre-7 said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:43 pm
Morgan: I don't see any inherent problem with superfluous information existing in the sentence, but it's worth noting that the superfluousness of said content would also depend partially on context. If it had been previously established that Jeff had always wanted a stepfather and Harry had always wanted a stepson, I think it would be reasonably natural to point out both changes in role, even if one is implied by the other.
Regardless, point taken. It was an inelegant sentence, to say the least.
Clark: Cute. :)
Morgan said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:46 pm
Tim, you've put your finger on the problem: the typical formula for "respectively" is something like "X and Y verbed A and B" or "X and Y A-verbed and B-verbed respectively", where "respectively" clarifies that it wasn't a collective action. "Vice versa" already untangles the two parts in the above sentences, even though they aren't ungrammatical.
This seems to imply the perfect solution would have to separate "vice versa" and "respectively" so they didn't refer to the same things in order to eradicate the redundancy. Perhaps a sentence ending in "vice versa" could be nested inside a longer sentence ending in "respectively" in place of the "B" in the above formulation (as opposed to the whole "A and B" formulation as the sentences above do):
After reading all the comments on the Language Log post, Marjorie and the entire class of first-graders wanted a stiff drink and to see a man bite a dog and vice versa, respectively.
Mike said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:48 pm
Here is a slightly different structure that ends in the desired phrase. Here the "and" in "and vice versa" is not the "and" of "A and B, respectively":
To choose between an escalator and an elevator is to either allow people to go in one direction only, or allow them go from the lobby to the basement and vice versa, respectively.
Yu Guo said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:49 pm
Jane and Mary love John and George, respectively; and vice versa, respectively.
Mike said,
September 3, 2009 @ 5:55 pm
Looks like Morgan had the same idea of embedding "and vice-versa" in a larger clause.. Funnier than my escalator/elevator sentence, too!
Morgan said,
September 3, 2009 @ 6:02 pm
Mike, that sentence flows well, but doesn't "respectively" serve the same function as "either… or" in it? To show the nesting visually,
But I think the "respectively" could be necessary if you instead said
To install an escalator or an elevator is to allow people to go in one direction only, or from lobby to basement and vice versa, respectively.
Mike said,
September 3, 2009 @ 6:11 pm
Morgan, I'm not sure if "either/or" always carries the same meaning about a correspondence in order that "respectively" does. But something about your revision certainly makes the "respectively" seem more crucial. Maybe it's that you eliminated the verb "choose" (and in general tightened up the sentence).
Bruce Rusk said,
September 3, 2009 @ 6:12 pm
The credit cards customized for members of the Masons Union and the Order of Rhyming Spoonerists are known as PlasterCard and Vice Versa, respectively.
Haamu said,
September 3, 2009 @ 6:28 pm
1. Bob and Ray went from Chicago to Detroit and vice versa.
2. Bob and Ray went from Chicago to Detroit and vice versa, respectively.
In (1), Bob and Ray go together from Chicago to Detroit and back. In (2), Bob goes from Chicago to Detroit while Ray goes from Detroit to Chicago.
Richard Sabey said,
September 3, 2009 @ 6:35 pm
Poland's and Indonesia's flags are white over red and vice versa, respectively.
Alan and Bob married June in May and vice versa, respectively.
Pat and Chris were jolly pretty and vice versa, respectively.
Kevin said,
September 3, 2009 @ 6:47 pm
The values x and y are equal to the numbers of people who belong to Club A but not Club B and vice versa, respectively.
I do like Clark's solution.
James said,
September 3, 2009 @ 7:04 pm
I think Amy has won — Morgan's Man Bites Dog sentence is good, but Amy was first and to my ear her sentence is more natural. Or anyway, more comprehensible.
Jem said,
September 3, 2009 @ 7:13 pm
Lois Lane and Clark Kent are super pretty and vice versa, respectively.
Kenny V said,
September 3, 2009 @ 7:26 pm
Mike's first sentence is perfect.
Jem said,
September 3, 2009 @ 7:27 pm
I just noticed that Richard Sabey beat me to that construction. Here's another to make up for it:
The group S_2 of permutations on a set of size 2 has only the trivial permutation and one nontrivial permutation as elements. When these permutations are applied to the words of a common Latin phrase, the results are "vice versa" and vice versa, respectively.
Now I'm even sorrier.
Stephen Jones said,
September 3, 2009 @ 7:42 pm
Richard's seems the only one that is natural, and not cheating using vice-versa as a quote.
Dave M said,
September 3, 2009 @ 7:45 pm
Some good ones! Mine was similar to Mike's 6:29:
When it comes to favorite Latin phrases used when talking about switching things around, John and Mary prefer mutatis mutandis and vice versa, respectively.
Mike said,
September 3, 2009 @ 8:52 pm
Richard's flag sentence is amazingly natural!
Paul Dubuc said,
September 3, 2009 @ 8:58 pm
Inelegant and coy, but economical:
My favorite and second favorite Crayolas are Blue Green and vice versa, respectively.
joeplus said,
September 3, 2009 @ 9:33 pm
I think Richard's sentence about the flags is fantastic, and surely fits the criteria.
Here's mine. I'm cheating a bit:
"At the party, alcoholic Adam and homophobic Harry quaffed beers and (spooneristically) vice versa, respectively."
HP said,
September 3, 2009 @ 9:44 pm
Okay, I'm no linguist, but isn't there a difference between using the phrase correctly grammatically, and using the phrase correctly semantically or syntactically? Are we parsing the Latin phrase "vice versa," and then trying to shoehorn that Latin grammar into our English grammar, or are we just treating it as an idiom in English?
If I wrote, "Jim kissed Geoff, and vice versa, respectively," what grammar error have I committed? I admit it's syntactically tortured and semantically meaningless, but what's wrong with the grammar?
mollymooly said,
September 3, 2009 @ 9:44 pm
Yakov Smirnoff's less funny brother:
"In America and Soviet Russia, people watch television and vice versa, respectively."
Emily said,
September 3, 2009 @ 10:10 pm
Laymen and developmental biologists say that zebras are white with black stripes, and vice versa, respectively.
The professor asked John and Mary to compose sentences including "respectively" and "vice versa", respectively. John and Mary used "respectively" correctly and "vice versa" incorrectly, and vice versa, respectively.
Kris Rhodes said,
September 3, 2009 @ 11:21 pm
I haven't read the rest of the comments, but here's my sentence:
John and Shirley listed the names I deleted, and the names wherein I put the surname in the first name field and vice versa, respectively.
HP said,
September 3, 2009 @ 11:38 pm
Just to follow up on my previous comment, in which my intent may have been unclear: Many of the commenters are struggling to come up with a sentence in which the phrase "and vice versa, respectively" makes sense. But isn't making sense an entirely different issue than being grammatically correct?
I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding how "and vice versa, respectively" could be ungrammatical English, regardless.
Yu Guo said,
September 4, 2009 @ 3:10 am
One problem with most of the proposals here is that 'vice versa' is being used as a placeholder for a subsentential phrase (obtained from a preceding subsentential phrase by transposing certain items therein), rather than as standing for a self-contained sentence (obtained from a preceding sentence by transposing certain items therein—the grammatical subject and object, for instance). So for example, we have:
(Mike's example)
Examples of a typical and atypical interaction are a dog biting a man and vice versa, respectively. => Examples of a typical and atypical interaction are a dog biting a man and a man biting a dog, respectively.
(Haamu's)
Bob and Ray went from Chicago to Detroit and vice versa, respectively => Bob and Ray went from Chicago to Detroit and went from Detroit to Chicago, respectively.
(Richard's)
Poland's and Indonesia's flags are white over red and vice versa, respectively => Poland's and Indonesia's flags are white over red and red over white, respectively
Examples such as these are fine, in a way. But they're also unsatisfactory as a response to Geoffrey's challenge. The vast majority of natural language occurrences of 'and vice versa'—and the ones that most readily come to mind—are sentential, not phrasal. (Examples: she hates him, and vice versa (=and he hates her); celebrities embrace Twitter, and vice versa (=and Twitter embraces celebrities) ). It doesn't take a lot of charity to construe the initial challenge as implicitly requiring 'vice versa' to be used in the way it is most commonly used (that is, as a placeholder for a sentence). (Similarly, it doesn't take a lot of charity to construe the challenge as implicitly requiring 'vice versa' to be used, not merely mentioned!) But if that is indeed the case, most of the examples that have been proposed wouldn't work at all.† (My own example would survive, though. "Jane and Mary love John and George, respectively; and vice versa, respectively." Here 'vice versa' is indeed used sententially, as shorthand for the sentence 'John and George love Jane and Mary')
† Note that while 'A went from C to D, and vice versa' can be said to contain a sentential occurrence of 'vice versa' (in the sense that 'vice versa' can be expanded into 'A went from D to C'), the same cannot be said of 'A and B went from C to D and vice versa, respectively' (this is Haamu’s example above). There's no way here to expand 'vice versa' into a sentence and still have a grammatical result ('A and B went from C to D and A and B went from D to C, respectively' is atrocious)
David said,
September 4, 2009 @ 3:26 am
So far mollymooly's is my favourite.
I think the reason these don't always sound perfect is that we often use 'respectively' with a list of more than two things. Vice versa wouldn't work appended to such a list.
Itamar said,
September 4, 2009 @ 3:56 am
It sounds like a win-win scenario for Jim, you and me, and vice versa, respectively.
Simon Cauchi said,
September 4, 2009 @ 3:57 am
I still don't know which one, Poland or Indonesia, has a flag that's white over red and which one red over white. Granted I could look it up, but we're talking about sentence structures and the communication of information, not flags.
The Maltese flag, in case you want to know, is white and red side by side, white on what I've just learned is called the hoist side.
Andy Hollandbeck said,
September 4, 2009 @ 11:57 am
The House debate began as normal, with a leading democrat first to the podium. In the hours that followed, alternating liberal and conservative views of health care reform were brought forward as the Democrats blasted the Republican's health care plan for being too expensive, and vice versa, respectively.
You could also add an "ad nauseum" at the end of this sentence.
Or perhaps more simply: Democrats and Republicans spent the day arguing for Obama's plan and against Limbaugh's plan, and vice versa, respectively.
Skullturf Q. Beavispants said,
September 4, 2009 @ 12:53 pm
I don't understand Simon Cauchi's comment at 3:57 am. The sentence in question was
"Poland's and Indonesia's flags are white over red and vice versa, respectively."
Seems pretty clear that the first country mentioned (Poland) goes with the first color combination mentioned (white over red).
Here, I'm interpreting "vice versa" as "the reverse of white over red", i.e., red over white.
Oana Uiorean said,
September 4, 2009 @ 5:02 pm
The cat stared at the dog, and vice versa, respectively.
John Walden said,
September 4, 2009 @ 5:58 pm
"Can you give us your opinion about the respective merits of virtue and vice, in your unique and unidentifiable accent, Professor?"
"Virtue betta and vice versa, respectively"
Terry Collmann said,
September 8, 2009 @ 12:47 pm
In too many of these attempts "respectively" is redundant, as in Oana Ulorean's. To me Richard Sabey's flags example is perfect, since you can't work out unambiguously which country has red-ver-white and which white-over-red without "respectively".
johnshade said,
September 9, 2009 @ 10:13 pm
Then one could channel Dorothy Parker and say "When Harold Ross and Dorothy Parker were invited to speak at the Language Log Commenters' Convention, they declined on the grounds that they were too fucking busy and vice versa, respectively."
Ryan said,
September 21, 2009 @ 9:22 pm
If you see tigers, there are cats around, if you see schnauzers, there are dogs around, and vice-versa, respectively.
Feynmaniac said,
September 24, 2009 @ 6:53 am
I stumbled across by this example by accident and remembered this post:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass_equivalence_theorem
MB said,
September 30, 2009 @ 6:51 pm
The City Café and the Town Restaurant were offering very similar specials on Tuesday night: potatoes with a side order of meat and vice versa, respectively.
I also think that Richard's example with the flags has been the most natural one so far. Mike's dog-bites-man one would get an honorable mention from me, though.