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	<title>Comments on: Hydrated and delicious</title>
	<atom:link href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?feed=rss2&#038;p=4368" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368</link>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 00:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The Atlantic presents An A-to-Z Guide to 2012's Worst Words &#124; Think CONTRA</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-308878</link>
		<dc:creator>The Atlantic presents An A-to-Z Guide to 2012's Worst Words &#124; Think CONTRA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:30:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-308878</guid>
		<description>[...] words year after year, and sometimes, we rail on those words (see our continued excoriation of poor oldmoist. What did moist ever do to any of us?). There are words, phrases, and coinages that end up marking [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] words year after year, and sometimes, we rail on those words (see our continued excoriation of poor oldmoist. What did moist ever do to any of us?). There are words, phrases, and coinages that end up marking [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Amy Canby</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-307653</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy Canby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2012 21:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-307653</guid>
		<description>What about toothsome?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about toothsome?</p>
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		<title>By: This Week&#8217;s Language Blog Roundup: Words of the Year, Grimm&#8217;s Fairy Tales, movies &#124; Wordnik</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-306229</link>
		<dc:creator>This Week&#8217;s Language Blog Roundup: Words of the Year, Grimm&#8217;s Fairy Tales, movies &#124; Wordnik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-306229</guid>
		<description>[...] gave us the A to Z of the year’s worst words (speaking of which, Mark Liberman considered some not-great euphemisms for the much maligned moist) while Geoff Nunberg told us to forget YOLO and focus on big data [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] gave us the A to Z of the year’s worst words (speaking of which, Mark Liberman considered some not-great euphemisms for the much maligned moist) while Geoff Nunberg told us to forget YOLO and focus on big data [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-305019</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 23:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-305019</guid>
		<description>Something I found interesting.
  Inflammable doesn't mean 'not flammable'; it is another term for flammable.
  I would have bet money that inflammable meant 'not flammable'.
Not everything beginning with 'In' means 'not-...'.
A good thing too since 'moist' would be replaced by 'indry'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something I found interesting.<br />
  Inflammable doesn't mean 'not flammable'; it is another term for flammable.<br />
  I would have bet money that inflammable meant 'not flammable'.<br />
Not everything beginning with 'In' means 'not-&#8230;'.<br />
A good thing too since 'moist' would be replaced by 'indry'.</p>
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		<title>By: julie lee</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-304074</link>
		<dc:creator>julie lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2012 17:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-304074</guid>
		<description>There is a Chinese word that's the opposite of words like "moist", "sticky", "slimy", "gooey",  and that's SHUANG, 爽  and the compound  QINGSHUANG 清爽, which is close in meaning. The closest English word I can think of is "clean", both in the physical and the figurative senses.  One feels SHUANG or "clean/nonsticky" after a shower.  One's clean-in-the-sense-of-straightforward/nonsticky/nonequivocating words can be SHUANG or QINGSHUANG or SHUANGKUAI.  A food can be SHUANG or QINGSHUANG "clear-clean-nongooey/nonheavy" to the palate.  One can handle or dispose of a sticky situation in a clear-clean non-messy or QINGSHUANG way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a Chinese word that's the opposite of words like "moist", "sticky", "slimy", "gooey",  and that's SHUANG, 爽  and the compound  QINGSHUANG 清爽, which is close in meaning. The closest English word I can think of is "clean", both in the physical and the figurative senses.  One feels SHUANG or "clean/nonsticky" after a shower.  One's clean-in-the-sense-of-straightforward/nonsticky/nonequivocating words can be SHUANG or QINGSHUANG or SHUANGKUAI.  A food can be SHUANG or QINGSHUANG "clear-clean-nongooey/nonheavy" to the palate.  One can handle or dispose of a sticky situation in a clear-clean non-messy or QINGSHUANG way.</p>
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		<title>By: aka Darrell</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-303625</link>
		<dc:creator>aka Darrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2012 00:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-303625</guid>
		<description>Perhaps one could use "The condition formerly known as moist."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps one could use "The condition formerly known as moist."</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Schulz</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-303473</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Schulz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-303473</guid>
		<description>@Keith M Ellis I agree that there's not likely to be one universal cause of word aversion. The situation is almost certainly more complicated than that in general. But associations with other cultural areas of disgust might explain a chunk of the phenomena.

@myl Your list of counter examples (baffle, squab, meal, chunky, wedge) is interesting. Not to go all sesquiotica (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/) on you, but could the folk etymology connecting "squaw" to vagina(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaw#Claims_of_obscene_meaning) have infested people's feeling's about squab? Is an aversion to "squab" ever attested prior to the Oprah episode in 1992 which popularized the false etymology? Chunky is related to vomit  via "to blow chunks". Wedge gets toward "wet" or "whet", and wet, of course, has similar associations as moist. I got nothing for "baffle" or "meal", though.

But, of course, if these loose homonyms really were the source of the aversion, then why wouldn't people express aversion to the homonym (squaw or wet, for instance) directly? We could construct a theory of repression and transference (perhaps it's more socially acceptable to state an aversion to "squab" rather than "squaw"), but that would obviously be reaching towards the hypothesis I was trying to evidence to begin with. Which is why I'm interested in any examples from other languages and cultures where the loci of disgust might be a bit different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Keith M Ellis I agree that there's not likely to be one universal cause of word aversion. The situation is almost certainly more complicated than that in general. But associations with other cultural areas of disgust might explain a chunk of the phenomena.</p>
<p>@myl Your list of counter examples (baffle, squab, meal, chunky, wedge) is interesting. Not to go all sesquiotica (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/) on you, but could the folk etymology connecting "squaw" to vagina(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaw#Claims_of_obscene_meaning) have infested people's feeling's about squab? Is an aversion to "squab" ever attested prior to the Oprah episode in 1992 which popularized the false etymology? Chunky is related to vomit  via "to blow chunks". Wedge gets toward "wet" or "whet", and wet, of course, has similar associations as moist. I got nothing for "baffle" or "meal", though.</p>
<p>But, of course, if these loose homonyms really were the source of the aversion, then why wouldn't people express aversion to the homonym (squaw or wet, for instance) directly? We could construct a theory of repression and transference (perhaps it's more socially acceptable to state an aversion to "squab" rather than "squaw"), but that would obviously be reaching towards the hypothesis I was trying to evidence to begin with. Which is why I'm interested in any examples from other languages and cultures where the loci of disgust might be a bit different.</p>
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		<title>By: Saskia</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302852</link>
		<dc:creator>Saskia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2012 07:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302852</guid>
		<description>It's funny because the person I know who hates the word moist most, is a male.
As for me, the word moist genuinely reminds me of delicious cake, so I love it. But I wouldn't mind if people used "divine" as a synonym. That's quite good, actually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's funny because the person I know who hates the word moist most, is a male.<br />
As for me, the word moist genuinely reminds me of delicious cake, so I love it. But I wouldn't mind if people used "divine" as a synonym. That's quite good, actually.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Waters</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302722</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Waters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 23:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302722</guid>
		<description>@Aaron Tovio: IIRC, the previous discussion revealed that some people &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; have similar feeling about words like "joist" and "hoist", while others don't. The "m" thing may be a factor as well, and likewise for the possible associations. My theory (not backed by any hard data, of course), is that &lt;i&gt;moist&lt;/i&gt; is a sort of perfect storm of triggers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Aaron Tovio: IIRC, the previous discussion revealed that some people <em>do</em> have similar feeling about words like "joist" and "hoist", while others don't. The "m" thing may be a factor as well, and likewise for the possible associations. My theory (not backed by any hard data, of course), is that <i>moist</i> is a sort of perfect storm of triggers.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Toivo</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302707</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Toivo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 22:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302707</guid>
		<description>It is interesting to examine what associations and judgements we give to words of similar shapes. For example the diphthong /oi/ is pointed to as part of the problem with "moist"; but do the people who feel this feel the same way about joist, hoist, foist? Boisterous? Toy, joy, loyal, royal? I would speculate that fairly few do. (Join may be a counterexample.) So what about that /m/, then? I can't think of any especially pleasant-feeling words that start with it beyond possibly "mist", and of course there's mud, muck, mire, and misery.  And yet, the sound also goes with mothers and enjoyment of food (mmm!). Perhaps the combination of /m/ with /oist/ does something the parts don't do by themselves, but there's no easy way to examine how. So my best guess is that semantic associations belonging to specific sounds in "moist", or pure value judgements of those sounds, are at best only part of the picture.

There seems to be an element of randomness to all this. For example why don't we hear more complaints about how awful a word "jump" is? Three quarters of this word is the legit phonaestheme -ump, of such words as bump, lump, dump, stump, hump, rump, clump, plump, mumps, and crumple, all of which signify masses or protrusions from a surface (or, for the verb, making one) and all of which have, to my mind, a rather coarse feel to them. Which is curiously lacking in "jump" even though it may be semantically connected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is interesting to examine what associations and judgements we give to words of similar shapes. For example the diphthong /oi/ is pointed to as part of the problem with "moist"; but do the people who feel this feel the same way about joist, hoist, foist? Boisterous? Toy, joy, loyal, royal? I would speculate that fairly few do. (Join may be a counterexample.) So what about that /m/, then? I can't think of any especially pleasant-feeling words that start with it beyond possibly "mist", and of course there's mud, muck, mire, and misery.  And yet, the sound also goes with mothers and enjoyment of food (mmm!). Perhaps the combination of /m/ with /oist/ does something the parts don't do by themselves, but there's no easy way to examine how. So my best guess is that semantic associations belonging to specific sounds in "moist", or pure value judgements of those sounds, are at best only part of the picture.</p>
<p>There seems to be an element of randomness to all this. For example why don't we hear more complaints about how awful a word "jump" is? Three quarters of this word is the legit phonaestheme -ump, of such words as bump, lump, dump, stump, hump, rump, clump, plump, mumps, and crumple, all of which signify masses or protrusions from a surface (or, for the verb, making one) and all of which have, to my mind, a rather coarse feel to them. Which is curiously lacking in "jump" even though it may be semantically connected.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302522</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 11:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302522</guid>
		<description>I'm reminded of this 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gwXJsWHupg

and Dennis Potter's Singing Detective. "What's the loveliest word in the English language, officer? In the sound it makes in the mouth? In the shape it makes in the page? E-L-B-O-W."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm reminded of this<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gwXJsWHupg" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gwXJsWHupg</a></p>
<p>and Dennis Potter's Singing Detective. "What's the loveliest word in the English language, officer? In the sound it makes in the mouth? In the shape it makes in the page? E-L-B-O-W."</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302490</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 09:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302490</guid>
		<description>@ Joe Green: "Well it's not in my 1998 OED nor my 1980 Chambers (both hard copies)."

Hardscrabble is in the 2008 Chambers (with the annotation "Chiefly US"). The only place I have come across it is in Cormac McCarthy's novels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Joe Green: "Well it's not in my 1998 OED nor my 1980 Chambers (both hard copies)."</p>
<p>Hardscrabble is in the 2008 Chambers (with the annotation "Chiefly US"). The only place I have come across it is in Cormac McCarthy's novels.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith M Ellis</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302480</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith M Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 09:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302480</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;This seems to support Scott Schulz's hypothesis that the content is really what's significant here, and the purported objections to sound, etc. are derived from unconscious post-hoc rationalizations. Otherwise, why would the phenomenon follow the dialect across these two very different words?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I'm ambivalent about your comment.  On the one hand, my sense about these aversions is that they're more often about semantic associations, rather than phonology, than many people claim.  Or, more precisely, my sense is that it's more likely such associations than not.

On the other hand, something that's bothered me about these discussions is how often people try to argue for some simple, universal theory — that's it's "really" about the associations or "really" just phonology.  Because it's just not that simple.  It's certainly not that simple in general, but it's not even that simple with individual words.  I feel certain that in many or most of these cases, the etiology of the negative conditioning against a particular word varies from person to person.  When some person explains that it really and truly is, for them personally, just an aversion to the sound of "moist", I am willing to believe them and not presume to second guess their own attested experience.  When they attempt to project their own experience onto everyone else as their explanation for a word aversion, that's something different.

I guess most of us tend to &lt;i&gt;want&lt;/i&gt; a grand unified theory of word aversion, but I feel certain that's not going to happen.  Why do people have food aversions?  Well, sometimes, it's because of negative associations and/or incidents earlier in their lives, often childhood.  Other times, it's just because.  Does it make sense to try to explain all food likes and dislikes, or all aesthetic likes and dislikes, on the basis of some culturally universal association, or on presumed specific childhood experiences?  No, it doesn't.  The same is true of word aversions.

I'll grant, based only on my own (fallible) personal intuition, that semantic associations are more likely than other explanations, all else being equal.  But that's not a very reliable guide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>This seems to support Scott Schulz's hypothesis that the content is really what's significant here, and the purported objections to sound, etc. are derived from unconscious post-hoc rationalizations. Otherwise, why would the phenomenon follow the dialect across these two very different words?</p></blockquote>
<p>I'm ambivalent about your comment.  On the one hand, my sense about these aversions is that they're more often about semantic associations, rather than phonology, than many people claim.  Or, more precisely, my sense is that it's more likely such associations than not.</p>
<p>On the other hand, something that's bothered me about these discussions is how often people try to argue for some simple, universal theory — that's it's "really" about the associations or "really" just phonology.  Because it's just not that simple.  It's certainly not that simple in general, but it's not even that simple with individual words.  I feel certain that in many or most of these cases, the etiology of the negative conditioning against a particular word varies from person to person.  When some person explains that it really and truly is, for them personally, just an aversion to the sound of "moist", I am willing to believe them and not presume to second guess their own attested experience.  When they attempt to project their own experience onto everyone else as their explanation for a word aversion, that's something different.</p>
<p>I guess most of us tend to <i>want</i> a grand unified theory of word aversion, but I feel certain that's not going to happen.  Why do people have food aversions?  Well, sometimes, it's because of negative associations and/or incidents earlier in their lives, often childhood.  Other times, it's just because.  Does it make sense to try to explain all food likes and dislikes, or all aesthetic likes and dislikes, on the basis of some culturally universal association, or on presumed specific childhood experiences?  No, it doesn't.  The same is true of word aversions.</p>
<p>I'll grant, based only on my own (fallible) personal intuition, that semantic associations are more likely than other explanations, all else being equal.  But that's not a very reliable guide.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Green</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302431</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 06:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302431</guid>
		<description>@myl: "Hardscrabble is in all the standard dictionaries"

Well it's not in my 1998 OED nor my 1980 Chambers (both hard copies). 

&lt;font color="#FF0000"&gt;[(myl) Please grow up. The OED's publication history for this word is as follows:

&lt;img src="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/hardscrabbleOEDhistory.png" /&gt;

And &lt;a href="http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hardscrabble" rel="nofollow"&gt;simple web search&lt;/a&gt; should have convinced you that it doesn't belong in a category for which "Are these even words?" is a reasonable non-troll-like question. Whether it's a word that you know, or a word that's found in your 1980 Chambers, is irrelevant to the original discussion.]&lt;/font&gt;

Longstanding US term, though it might be, it has not entered the UK lexicon, as far as I know.

I picked it out deliberately. Although it is a word which I have never ever heard or read (to my recollection), it does immediately convey a sense of severe physical discomfort, which might be connected to people's aversion to it. Or not, given the avowed aversion to pretty neutral-seeming words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@myl: "Hardscrabble is in all the standard dictionaries"</p>
<p>Well it's not in my 1998 OED nor my 1980 Chambers (both hard copies). </p>
<p><font color="#FF0000">[(myl) Please grow up. The OED's publication history for this word is as follows:</p>
<p><img src="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/hardscrabbleOEDhistory.png" /></p>
<p>And <a href="http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hardscrabble" rel="nofollow">simple web search</a> should have convinced you that it doesn't belong in a category for which "Are these even words?" is a reasonable non-troll-like question. Whether it's a word that you know, or a word that's found in your 1980 Chambers, is irrelevant to the original discussion.]</font></p>
<p>Longstanding US term, though it might be, it has not entered the UK lexicon, as far as I know.</p>
<p>I picked it out deliberately. Although it is a word which I have never ever heard or read (to my recollection), it does immediately convey a sense of severe physical discomfort, which might be connected to people's aversion to it. Or not, given the avowed aversion to pretty neutral-seeming words.</p>
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		<title>By: Albrt Vogler</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302279</link>
		<dc:creator>Albrt Vogler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 01:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4368#comment-302279</guid>
		<description>I seem to recall that U.S. Grant named his farm Hardscrabble. I could look it up somewhere to be sure, but I'm too lazy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I seem to recall that U.S. Grant named his farm Hardscrabble. I could look it up somewhere to be sure, but I'm too lazy.</p>
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