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	<title>Comments on: The New Yorker vs. the descriptivist specter</title>
	<atom:link href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?feed=rss2&#038;p=3985" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985</link>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 19 May 2013 07:58:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: J F Quackenbush</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-213725</link>
		<dc:creator>J F Quackenbush</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2012 20:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-213725</guid>
		<description>I don't think you read that DFW article carefully enough. Far from making out the straw man, it's a bit of a satire of the controversy and how silly it is while trying to tease out where it came from in the first place. He may have gotten that last part wrong, but it isn't because he made a strawman out of the positions. Rather, I think he took the strawmen as he found them knowing what he was doing. At least, that's how I read it.

&lt;font color="#FF0000"&gt;[(myl) I'm afraid that you seem to be the one who didn't read DFW carefully. His trademark irony aside, he was completely serious about being a "SNOOT"; and like all too many language peevers, he was badly informed about the positions that he opposed and satirized, and also amazingly careless in his own broad-brush assertions about Proper Usage. See &lt;a href="http://www.languagehat.com/archives/000510.php" rel="nofollow"&gt;Language Hat's 2002 critique&lt;/a&gt; for chapter and verse, or see &lt;a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1562" rel="nofollow"&gt;this 2009 LLOG post&lt;/a&gt; for some discussion of the slipshod scholarship in his strawmanification of Philip Gove and Webster's Third.]&lt;/font&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't think you read that DFW article carefully enough. Far from making out the straw man, it's a bit of a satire of the controversy and how silly it is while trying to tease out where it came from in the first place. He may have gotten that last part wrong, but it isn't because he made a strawman out of the positions. Rather, I think he took the strawmen as he found them knowing what he was doing. At least, that's how I read it.</p>
<p><font color="#FF0000">[(myl) I'm afraid that you seem to be the one who didn't read DFW carefully. His trademark irony aside, he was completely serious about being a "SNOOT"; and like all too many language peevers, he was badly informed about the positions that he opposed and satirized, and also amazingly careless in his own broad-brush assertions about Proper Usage. See <a href="http://www.languagehat.com/archives/000510.php" rel="nofollow">Language Hat's 2002 critique</a> for chapter and verse, or see <a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1562" rel="nofollow">this 2009 LLOG post</a> for some discussion of the slipshod scholarship in his strawmanification of Philip Gove and Webster's Third.]</font></p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-204554</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2012 02:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-204554</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;What these folks need is a basic course in linguistics to establish a sense of context.&lt;/em&gt;

I agree.  I think this whole kerfuffle is symptomatic of deeper misunderstanding about the scientific goals of linguistics as a field. People don't understand the purpose of linguistics.  Because it's more entangled with social behavior, it's harder to study it dispassionately as a scientific enterprise, no different than, say, biology.  A common theme on this blog, granted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>What these folks need is a basic course in linguistics to establish a sense of context.</em></p>
<p>I agree.  I think this whole kerfuffle is symptomatic of deeper misunderstanding about the scientific goals of linguistics as a field. People don't understand the purpose of linguistics.  Because it's more entangled with social behavior, it's harder to study it dispassionately as a scientific enterprise, no different than, say, biology.  A common theme on this blog, granted.</p>
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		<title>By: languagehat</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202564</link>
		<dc:creator>languagehat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 12:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202564</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Can a true descriptivist could make such an unequivocal claim? &lt;/i&gt;

Of course.  As many, many people have said, descriptivism does not mean "Hey, anything goes, spell and talk and write however you like, there are no rules!"  It means languages should be described as they are and not as random moralists think they should be.  One basic fact often (in fact, virtually always) ignored by prescriptivists setting up their "descriptivist" straw men for another bashing is that descriptivism in the linguistic sense has nothing to do with spelling or style (in the "do commas go inside or outside quotes?" sense); those things are arbitrary/conventional and are decided by reference to dictionaries and style guides, respectively.  That does not mean they are set in stone -- they are subject to change, as are all human things -- and eventually those changes are reflected in the dictionaries ("base ball" becomes "base-ball" which becomes "baseball"), but any linguist will agree that if you are writing for the public eye you should spell words in the conventionally accepted way.  That issue has nothing to do with grammar and spoken usage, which is what descriptivism addresses, and it's a disservice to clear thinking and honest discussion to pretend it does.

I am a dyed-in-the-wool descriptivist who despises attempts to tell people how to talk their own language, and I am also a copyeditor who enforces Webster's spelling and &lt;i&gt;Chicago&lt;/i&gt;'s style rules.  There is no contradiction whatever, despite what idiotic &lt;i&gt;New Yorker&lt;/i&gt; writers might think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Can a true descriptivist could make such an unequivocal claim? </i></p>
<p>Of course.  As many, many people have said, descriptivism does not mean "Hey, anything goes, spell and talk and write however you like, there are no rules!"  It means languages should be described as they are and not as random moralists think they should be.  One basic fact often (in fact, virtually always) ignored by prescriptivists setting up their "descriptivist" straw men for another bashing is that descriptivism in the linguistic sense has nothing to do with spelling or style (in the "do commas go inside or outside quotes?" sense); those things are arbitrary/conventional and are decided by reference to dictionaries and style guides, respectively.  That does not mean they are set in stone &#8212; they are subject to change, as are all human things &#8212; and eventually those changes are reflected in the dictionaries ("base ball" becomes "base-ball" which becomes "baseball"), but any linguist will agree that if you are writing for the public eye you should spell words in the conventionally accepted way.  That issue has nothing to do with grammar and spoken usage, which is what descriptivism addresses, and it's a disservice to clear thinking and honest discussion to pretend it does.</p>
<p>I am a dyed-in-the-wool descriptivist who despises attempts to tell people how to talk their own language, and I am also a copyeditor who enforces Webster's spelling and <i>Chicago</i>'s style rules.  There is no contradiction whatever, despite what idiotic <i>New Yorker</i> writers might think.</p>
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		<title>By: Neal Goldfarb</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202278</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal Goldfarb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 17:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202278</guid>
		<description>Curiouser and curiouser.

According to two recent comments on Bloom's piece, and &lt;a href="http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/30/the-new-yorker-vs-descriptivist-linguists/?mod=google_news_blog" rel="nofollow"&gt;an item on one of the WSJ's blogs&lt;/a&gt;, Bloom has posted an update. The WSJ item says that the update "pretty much nullifies the [original] post" and one of the commenters at the New Yorker quotes the update as referring to "the nit-picking displayed in certain mainstream essays that promote extreme descriptive values while simultaneously demonizing the prescriptive 'rules.'” (The other comment reads, "Thanks for the "Updated". I think I understand. You're saying that by 'descriptivists' you actually meant 'half-wits'. Or what the rest of us would call 'straw men'.")

But when I go looking for the update, I can't find it. I get a google hit for it, but when I click on the link I get directed to the Bloom's &lt;i&gt;un-updated&lt;/i&gt; post...at the foot of which are two comments referring to the update.

Either there's some strange voodoo shit happening, or Bloom posted the 
update and then took it down.

&lt;font color="#FF0000"&gt;[(myl) I have the same experience: at least two of the comments refer to an update, but no update seems to be present.]&lt;/font&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curiouser and curiouser.</p>
<p>According to two recent comments on Bloom's piece, and <a href="http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/30/the-new-yorker-vs-descriptivist-linguists/?mod=google_news_blog" rel="nofollow">an item on one of the WSJ's blogs</a>, Bloom has posted an update. The WSJ item says that the update "pretty much nullifies the [original] post" and one of the commenters at the New Yorker quotes the update as referring to "the nit-picking displayed in certain mainstream essays that promote extreme descriptive values while simultaneously demonizing the prescriptive 'rules.'” (The other comment reads, "Thanks for the "Updated". I think I understand. You're saying that by 'descriptivists' you actually meant 'half-wits'. Or what the rest of us would call 'straw men'.")</p>
<p>But when I go looking for the update, I can't find it. I get a google hit for it, but when I click on the link I get directed to the Bloom's <i>un-updated</i> post&#8230;at the foot of which are two comments referring to the update.</p>
<p>Either there's some strange voodoo shit happening, or Bloom posted the<br />
update and then took it down.</p>
<p><font color="#FF0000">[(myl) I have the same experience: at least two of the comments refer to an update, but no update seems to be present.]</font></p>
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		<title>By: MJ</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202272</link>
		<dc:creator>MJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 17:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202272</guid>
		<description>Out here in the copyediting trenches, as opposed to inside linguistics, descriptivism does, of course, entail making judgments about the acceptability of a given construction; one prevalent misconception that I confront in copyediting circles about descriptivism as an approach to editing is that descriptivists are prescribing the use of whatever is common (and I mean that in the several senses of the word)—this is why I think Acocella and her ilk return repeatedly to the idea that descriptivists are being hypocritical if they, say, use “whom.” In a recent attempt to challenge this misconception on a copyediting listserv, I described my view of what descriptivism entails for me as a copyeditor in the following way: “Approaching language descriptively as a copyeditor doesn't mean figuring what the most common form of an expression is and then enforcing its use; rather it just means considering stetting variant forms of expressions that have become standard instead of unreflectively replacing them with one's own preferred form.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Out here in the copyediting trenches, as opposed to inside linguistics, descriptivism does, of course, entail making judgments about the acceptability of a given construction; one prevalent misconception that I confront in copyediting circles about descriptivism as an approach to editing is that descriptivists are prescribing the use of whatever is common (and I mean that in the several senses of the word)—this is why I think Acocella and her ilk return repeatedly to the idea that descriptivists are being hypocritical if they, say, use “whom.” In a recent attempt to challenge this misconception on a copyediting listserv, I described my view of what descriptivism entails for me as a copyeditor in the following way: “Approaching language descriptively as a copyeditor doesn't mean figuring what the most common form of an expression is and then enforcing its use; rather it just means considering stetting variant forms of expressions that have become standard instead of unreflectively replacing them with one's own preferred form.”</p>
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		<title>By: J.W. Brewer</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202219</link>
		<dc:creator>J.W. Brewer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 15:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202219</guid>
		<description>I haven't done a search to see exactly how many prior New Yorker articles turned up in LL posts with the "ignorance of linguistics" tag, but I was reminded of this classic:  
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2734</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven't done a search to see exactly how many prior New Yorker articles turned up in LL posts with the "ignorance of linguistics" tag, but I was reminded of this classic:<br />
<a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2734" rel="nofollow">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2734</a></p>
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		<title>By: dw</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202205</link>
		<dc:creator>dw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 14:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202205</guid>
		<description>@Renato Mores:

&lt;i&gt;For example, if a newspaper published the word sentence spelled sentance, a descriptivist could point out that it "should" be spelled with an e &lt;/i&gt;

Can a true descriptivist could make such an unequivocal claim?  I don't think so -- and your use of quotation marks around "should" reveals that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Renato Mores:</p>
<p><i>For example, if a newspaper published the word sentence spelled sentance, a descriptivist could point out that it "should" be spelled with an e </i></p>
<p>Can a true descriptivist could make such an unequivocal claim?  I don't think so &#8212; and your use of quotation marks around "should" reveals that.</p>
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		<title>By: Faldone</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202152</link>
		<dc:creator>Faldone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 11:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202152</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;... there is an enormous number of peculiarities in current American use that do not follow the rules of English grammar.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is based on the (mistaken, IMO) notion that the subject(?) is the singular &lt;i&gt;number&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230; there is an enormous number of peculiarities in current American use that do not follow the rules of English grammar.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is based on the (mistaken, IMO) notion that the subject(?) is the singular <i>number</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202143</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 10:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202143</guid>
		<description>I think the terms "descriptive linguistics" and "prescriptive linguistics" are rather misleading as they suggest two different but equal schools of thought within a single discipline. Better terms would be "linguistics" and "linguology", along the lines of "astronomy" and "astrology".

Like astrology, linguology is the study and application of a theory dreamed up in more superstitious times when the ancients were thought to be the only reliable source of knowledge. Both have survived into modern times, practised by armchair kooks without any formal training, despite being thoroughly discredited by scholars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the terms "descriptive linguistics" and "prescriptive linguistics" are rather misleading as they suggest two different but equal schools of thought within a single discipline. Better terms would be "linguistics" and "linguology", along the lines of "astronomy" and "astrology".</p>
<p>Like astrology, linguology is the study and application of a theory dreamed up in more superstitious times when the ancients were thought to be the only reliable source of knowledge. Both have survived into modern times, practised by armchair kooks without any formal training, despite being thoroughly discredited by scholars.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan H</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202134</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 10:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202134</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I'm inclined to call Poe's law on the second letter, too — not least because of this bit:

"there is an enormous number of peculiarities in current American use that do not follow the rules of English grammar"

Very arch.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Quite so. Surely they realise that it is bad grammar to use "enormous" to mean "very large".

&lt;blockquote&gt;Alacritas: The older construction, still alive and well in many parts, is "Have you finished your homework (yet)?" with refers to a current situation, while "Did you finish your homework?" would not be used with "yet" but could refer to any time in the past.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I'd thought it was something even stupider than that - I'm pretty sure that some people object to "have you finished your homework yet" on the grounds that "yet" means "still" and so "have you finished your homework yet" means "have you still finished your homework".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I'm inclined to call Poe's law on the second letter, too — not least because of this bit:</p>
<p>"there is an enormous number of peculiarities in current American use that do not follow the rules of English grammar"</p>
<p>Very arch.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Quite so. Surely they realise that it is bad grammar to use "enormous" to mean "very large".</p>
<blockquote><p>Alacritas: The older construction, still alive and well in many parts, is "Have you finished your homework (yet)?" with refers to a current situation, while "Did you finish your homework?" would not be used with "yet" but could refer to any time in the past.</p></blockquote>
<p>I'd thought it was something even stupider than that - I'm pretty sure that some people object to "have you finished your homework yet" on the grounds that "yet" means "still" and so "have you finished your homework yet" means "have you still finished your homework".</p>
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		<title>By: Doreen</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202103</link>
		<dc:creator>Doreen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 05:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202103</guid>
		<description>@Steve
I'm inclined to call Poe's law on the second letter, too -- not least because of this bit:
&lt;blockquote&gt;there is an enormous number of peculiarities in current American use that do not follow the rules of English grammar&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Very arch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steve<br />
I'm inclined to call Poe's law on the second letter, too &#8212; not least because of this bit:</p>
<blockquote><p>there is an enormous number of peculiarities in current American use that do not follow the rules of English grammar</p></blockquote>
<p>Very arch.</p>
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		<title>By: John McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202068</link>
		<dc:creator>John McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 03:56:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-202068</guid>
		<description>"The descriptivist specter" is essentially the same set of canards that were current at the publication of Webster's Third International half a century ago. Evidently The New Yorker has not troubled to give fresh thought to the issue since Dwight Macdonald charged his blunderbuss and let fly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"The descriptivist specter" is essentially the same set of canards that were current at the publication of Webster's Third International half a century ago. Evidently The New Yorker has not troubled to give fresh thought to the issue since Dwight Macdonald charged his blunderbuss and let fly.</p>
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		<title>By: Roaming Catholic</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-201773</link>
		<dc:creator>Roaming Catholic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 01:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-201773</guid>
		<description>I'm struck by the brief foray into lexicography here, as so many people seem to presume a prescriptive reading of dictionaries.  This leads to a false dichotomy based on the idea that a dictionary exists as a how-to manual dictating language usage, with the alternative being that prescriptivist strawman that would say it's there to validate absolutely everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm struck by the brief foray into lexicography here, as so many people seem to presume a prescriptive reading of dictionaries.  This leads to a false dichotomy based on the idea that a dictionary exists as a how-to manual dictating language usage, with the alternative being that prescriptivist strawman that would say it's there to validate absolutely everything.</p>
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		<title>By: marie-lucie</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-201768</link>
		<dc:creator>marie-lucie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 00:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-201768</guid>
		<description>I learned English the hard way, as a second language!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I learned English the hard way, as a second language!</p>
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		<title>By: The Ridger</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-201766</link>
		<dc:creator>The Ridger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 00:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3985#comment-201766</guid>
		<description>@marie-lucie: Thank you. I was unable to come up with the "problem"!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@marie-lucie: Thank you. I was unable to come up with the "problem"!</p>
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