Comments on: Neutral Xi_b^star, Xi(b)^{*0}, Ξb*0, whatever http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926 Wed, 22 May 2013 13:37:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: Sandy Nicholson http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-193499 Sandy Nicholson Fri, 04 May 2012 13:58:03 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-193499 Glen Gordon wrote: /xaj/ in English is just plain wrong on so many levels. As a Scot (and perhaps more significantly, as a Gaelic-speaker), I tend to pronounce χ/Χ as /xi/ or occasionally /xai/, never as /kai/. (Admittedly, Scottish English uses /x/ rarely and never word-initially (as far as I know). Glen Gordon wrote: /xaj/ in English is just plain wrong on so many levels.

As a Scot (and perhaps more significantly, as a Gaelic-speaker), I tend to pronounce χ/Χ as /xi/ or occasionally /xai/, never as /kai/. (Admittedly, Scottish English uses /x/ rarely and never word-initially (as far as I know).

]]> By: Rucca http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-193088 Rucca Wed, 02 May 2012 16:42:06 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-193088 Maybe it is because the name is so complicated, “Xi_b^{0star} baryon", which should be read as "neutral excited strange and beautiful baryon", that the people who made the discovery, in CMS, call the particle simply as "the Ernestion", because it was first found by a postdoc called Ernest. Maybe it is because the name is so complicated, “Xi_b^{0star} baryon", which should be read as "neutral excited strange and beautiful baryon", that the people who made the discovery, in CMS, call the particle simply as "the Ernestion", because it was first found by a postdoc called Ernest.

]]> By: Sili http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192859 Sili Tue, 01 May 2012 13:23:24 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192859 <a href="http://profmattstrassler.com/2012/05/01/new-particle-cms-through-media/" rel="nofollow">Another datapoint</a>:<blockquote>The new specimen is a particular type of excited beauty baryon called Xi(b)*, pronounced “csai-bee-star.</blockquote> Another datapoint:
The new specimen is a particular type of excited beauty baryon called Xi(b)*, pronounced “csai-bee-star.

]]> By: Glen Gordon http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192805 Glen Gordon Tue, 01 May 2012 04:04:41 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192805 @Matt McIrvin, Eugene van der Pijll and others for a very precise answer. My head just exploded. I'll have to think a great deal more about all this obviously. And pentaquarks, that's a neat hypothesis too. As for how "xi" is pronounced, I find that because English speakers find word-initial /ks/ unnatural, we will tend to avoid it if possible. So while /ksaj/ is more true to its Greek origin, /zaj/ is an attempt at naturalizing the foreign sequence of sounds. (And /xaj/ in English is just plain wrong on so many levels.) I speak French too and it always fascinates me how what sounds "natural" in one language just doesn't in another, and further, how we can hold all these different languages and their rules in our head without having a seizure. The brain is an interesting organ. So "xi" is /ksi/ in French and I've never heard */zi/ in that language. @Matt McIrvin, Eugene van der Pijll and others for a very precise answer. My head just exploded. I'll have to think a great deal more about all this obviously. And pentaquarks, that's a neat hypothesis too.

As for how "xi" is pronounced, I find that because English speakers find word-initial /ks/ unnatural, we will tend to avoid it if possible. So while /ksaj/ is more true to its Greek origin, /zaj/ is an attempt at naturalizing the foreign sequence of sounds. (And /xaj/ in English is just plain wrong on so many levels.) I speak French too and it always fascinates me how what sounds "natural" in one language just doesn't in another, and further, how we can hold all these different languages and their rules in our head without having a seizure. The brain is an interesting organ. So "xi" is /ksi/ in French and I've never heard */zi/ in that language.

]]> By: Rodger C http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192693 Rodger C Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:34:52 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192693 @Yet: I think he was probably saying "xi" and making a lower-case one, which could easily degenerate into three vertical wiggles. @Yet: I think he was probably saying "xi" and making a lower-case one, which could easily degenerate into three vertical wiggles.

]]> By: Yet another John http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192691 Yet another John Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:08:32 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192691 Another data point from a mathematician. In my idiolect: φ is /fi/, almost always, I think. /fai/ is understandable but sounds odd to me, unless we are talking about the name of a fraternal organization (in which case it is always /fai/). ψ is usually /sai/, though I think in free variation with /si/ and /psi/ (depending on the phase of the moon). Ξ is /ksi/, I think. This comes up rarely, so I'll be sure to articulate it carefully to avoid confusion with the other two. One time in grad school we had a professor who used an ambiguously-shaped squiggle on the chalkboard which he called /zai/. We never did figure out which letter it was supposed to be, or if he was simply improvising a new Greek letter on the spot. Another data point from a mathematician. In my idiolect:

φ is /fi/, almost always, I think. /fai/ is understandable but sounds odd to me, unless we are talking about the name of a fraternal organization (in which case it is always /fai/).

ψ is usually /sai/, though I think in free variation with /si/ and /psi/ (depending on the phase of the moon).

Ξ is /ksi/, I think. This comes up rarely, so I'll be sure to articulate it carefully to avoid confusion with the other two.

One time in grad school we had a professor who used an ambiguously-shaped squiggle on the chalkboard which he called /zai/. We never did figure out which letter it was supposed to be, or if he was simply improvising a new Greek letter on the spot.

]]> By: Jerry Friedman http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192682 Jerry Friedman Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:06:45 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192682 I've heard physicists use both. In teaching freshman physics, I say /fi/—we usually don't mention ψ or ξ, and at this point I'm not sure how I pronounce ψ. (ξ is /ksi/ for me.) A friend and fellow physics major in college pronounced Φ /faɪ/ and φ /fi/, just to keep things clear. He might still, actually. He also said capital Latin letters louder than small letters when there was a risk of confusion. I do that occasionally to entertain my students. I've heard physicists use both. In teaching freshman physics, I say /fi/—we usually don't mention ψ or ξ, and at this point I'm not sure how I pronounce ψ. (ξ is /ksi/ for me.)

A friend and fellow physics major in college pronounced Φ /faɪ/ and φ /fi/, just to keep things clear. He might still, actually. He also said capital Latin letters louder than small letters when there was a risk of confusion. I do that occasionally to entertain my students.

]]> By: Rod Johnson http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192668 Rod Johnson Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:12:05 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192668 Layra: /xi/? With a velar fricative? Layra: /xi/? With a velar fricative?

]]> By: Army1987 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192653 Army1987 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:08:30 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192653 I'd pronounce it either "xi-bee-star-zero" or "excited neutral bottom cascade", depending on the same things depending on which I'd say "del cross bee" or "the curl of the magnetic field". <font color="#FF0000">[(myl) "Excited neutral beauty cascade" is more upbeat, and sort of follows the lead of the CMS group itself. But "Excited neutral bottom cascade" is certainly a more memorable image.]</font> I'd pronounce it either "xi-bee-star-zero" or "excited neutral bottom cascade", depending on the same things depending on which I'd say "del cross bee" or "the curl of the magnetic field".

[(myl) "Excited neutral beauty cascade" is more upbeat, and sort of follows the lead of the CMS group itself. But "Excited neutral bottom cascade" is certainly a more memorable image.]

]]> By: Sandy Nicholson http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192651 Sandy Nicholson Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:53:54 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192651 As a mathematician-turned-linguist, I agree with Layra that π/Π is usually pronounced /pai/ by mathematicians (who could hardly say /pi/, given that there is another common letter with that pronunciation!). But ξ/Ξ is definitely pronounced /ksi/ (not /xi/!). (I pronounce it that way anyway, but I couldn’t swear that I’d never heard a mathematician say /ksai/.) I also say /fi/ and /psi/, but I have heard plenty of mathematicians say /fai/ and /psai/ (and possibly /sai/). For what it’s worth, I’m also a person who doesn’t think twice about reading plain text with LaTeX-source-inspired notation for subscripts etc. As a mathematician-turned-linguist, I agree with Layra that π/Π is usually pronounced /pai/ by mathematicians (who could hardly say /pi/, given that there is another common letter with that pronunciation!). But ξ/Ξ is definitely pronounced /ksi/ (not /xi/!). (I pronounce it that way anyway, but I couldn’t swear that I’d never heard a mathematician say /ksai/.) I also say /fi/ and /psi/, but I have heard plenty of mathematicians say /fai/ and /psai/ (and possibly /sai/).

For what it’s worth, I’m also a person who doesn’t think twice about reading plain text with LaTeX-source-inspired notation for subscripts etc.

]]> By: Layra http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192616 Layra Mon, 30 Apr 2012 04:27:07 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192616 As a mathematician, I have heard precisely one of my professors ever pronounce pi as /pi/, but had dismissed it as him being Russian. I actually hear a lot of variance in the pronunciation of phi and psi even within individuals, but xi is always pronounced /xi/. As a mathematician, I have heard precisely one of my professors ever pronounce pi as /pi/, but had dismissed it as him being Russian.
I actually hear a lot of variance in the pronunciation of phi and psi even within individuals, but xi is always pronounced /xi/.

]]> By: Matt McIrvin http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192575 Matt McIrvin Sun, 29 Apr 2012 21:43:34 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192575 For xi, in physics, I've usually heard either /zai/ or /ksai/. Or "cascade" for the particle. For xi, in physics, I've usually heard either /zai/ or /ksai/. Or "cascade" for the particle.

]]> By: Mark F. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192568 Mark F. Sun, 29 Apr 2012 21:26:37 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192568 The issue of how to say it out loud has an interesting angle too. There seems to be a difference in pronunciation cultures (perhaps just subsets of them) between math and physics on phi, psi, and xi. Physicists seem to use the anglicized pronunciations of /fai/, /sai/ and /zai/, while a lot of my math professors in grad school used what I'm told is something like the classicist's pronunciation of /fi/, /psi/ and /ksi/. Of course, neither group pronounces pi as /pi/. The issue of how to say it out loud has an interesting angle too. There seems to be a difference in pronunciation cultures (perhaps just subsets of them) between math and physics on phi, psi, and xi. Physicists seem to use the anglicized pronunciations of /fai/, /sai/ and /zai/, while a lot of my math professors in grad school used what I'm told is something like the classicist's pronunciation of /fi/, /psi/ and /ksi/. Of course, neither group pronounces pi as /pi/.

]]> By: Brett http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192526 Brett Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:29:50 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192526 I was expecting the whole post would be about the fact that a Xi particle is called a "cascade" in English, since that is a genuine linguistic oddity of these kinds of baryons. The various subscripts and superscripts are really quite transparent if one is used to working with them, but the "cascade" thing is really unique. Nor is the "cascade" usage limited to speech; it can be found in many books, especially older ones. I was expecting the whole post would be about the fact that a Xi particle is called a "cascade" in English, since that is a genuine linguistic oddity of these kinds of baryons. The various subscripts and superscripts are really quite transparent if one is used to working with them, but the "cascade" thing is really unique. Nor is the "cascade" usage limited to speech; it can be found in many books, especially older ones.

]]> By: Rich Magahiz http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192525 Rich Magahiz Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:29:43 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3926#comment-192525 Actually, Sili, my former research collaboration came out with <a href="http://www.eurekalert.org/features/doe/2003-07/djna-pne080103.php" rel="nofollow">evidence</a> interpreted as evidence for a pentaquark. The interpretation was that it consists not of five quarks but of four quarks and an antiquark. There was controversy later when other experiments failed to confirm that first report, however. Actually, Sili, my former research collaboration came out with evidence interpreted as evidence for a pentaquark. The interpretation was that it consists not of five quarks but of four quarks and an antiquark. There was controversy later when other experiments failed to confirm that first report, however.

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