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	<title>Comments on: Corpus linguistics in statutory interpretation</title>
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	<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 11:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Koncision » Posner&#8217;s Alternative to Reaching for the Dictionary</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-177656</link>
		<dc:creator>Koncision » Posner&#8217;s Alternative to Reaching for the Dictionary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Mar 2012 09:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-177656</guid>
		<description>[...] A. Adams    var addthis_product = 'wpp-261'; var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};See this post on Language Log for how Judge Richard Posner did more than reach for the nearest dictionary in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] A. Adams    var addthis_product = 'wpp-261&#8242;; var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};See this post on Language Log for how Judge Richard Posner did more than reach for the nearest dictionary in [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Weinberg</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-177383</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Weinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2012 00:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-177383</guid>
		<description>@JW Brewer:  I call it "sloppy" here because [1] it's lexicalized rather than compositional, so one can't figure out its meaning merely by combining its constituent parts, but [2] looking at it as a lexicalized unit, its boundaries aren't clear: different native AmE speakers, if polled, might well answer the questions in my earlier comment differently.  Yes, there's a core of cases that as a matter of general agreement fall within the core meaning of "illegal alien," but there are a lot of cases that different speakers would put either inside or outside the boundaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@JW Brewer:  I call it "sloppy" here because [1] it's lexicalized rather than compositional, so one can't figure out its meaning merely by combining its constituent parts, but [2] looking at it as a lexicalized unit, its boundaries aren't clear: different native AmE speakers, if polled, might well answer the questions in my earlier comment differently.  Yes, there's a core of cases that as a matter of general agreement fall within the core meaning of "illegal alien," but there are a lot of cases that different speakers would put either inside or outside the boundaries.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Nicholls</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176744</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Nicholls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 13:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I live in Kenya. I am not a Kenyan citizen. I am therefore and alien in the country albeit legal. I carry an ID that is called an "Alien ID." An alien in this sense is a none citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in Kenya. I am not a Kenyan citizen. I am therefore and alien in the country albeit legal. I carry an ID that is called an "Alien ID." An alien in this sense is a none citizen.</p>
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		<title>By: J.W. Brewer</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176322</link>
		<dc:creator>J.W. Brewer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2012 22:00:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176322</guid>
		<description>@Jon Weinberg:  "illegal alien" is a widely-used fixed phrase in AmEng.  Perhaps what you are calling "woefully sloppy" is just its arguable failure to have a perfectly compositional meaning?  (But consider, by way of parallel, the phrase "illegal subtenant" used in real-estate parlance, even though it is not afaik an actual crime to be a party to an unauthorized sublease.)  In any event, Ms. Costello's boyfriend was one of the subset of "illegal aliens" who did in fact commit a criminal violation of the immigration laws (in his case by reentering illegally after having been previously deported due to a felony conviction), so he was subject to being indicted, convicted, and locked up rather than simply deported again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jon Weinberg:  "illegal alien" is a widely-used fixed phrase in AmEng.  Perhaps what you are calling "woefully sloppy" is just its arguable failure to have a perfectly compositional meaning?  (But consider, by way of parallel, the phrase "illegal subtenant" used in real-estate parlance, even though it is not afaik an actual crime to be a party to an unauthorized sublease.)  In any event, Ms. Costello's boyfriend was one of the subset of "illegal aliens" who did in fact commit a criminal violation of the immigration laws (in his case by reentering illegally after having been previously deported due to a felony conviction), so he was subject to being indicted, convicted, and locked up rather than simply deported again.</p>
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		<title>By: Not My Leg</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176320</link>
		<dc:creator>Not My Leg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2012 21:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176320</guid>
		<description>The proper analogy is that it is illegal to commit murder, it is not illegal to be one who has committed murder.

It may be illegal, criminally or civilly, to enter into the united states without going through official channels, or it may be illegal, criminally or civilly, to remain in the country after expiration of temporary permission to be in the country. It is not, however, illegal to simply be an illegal immigrant, the crime is in the acting or failing to act, not in the status.

Generally it isn't that important a distinction, but it did come before the Supreme Court in terms of whether being addicted to drugs could constitute a crime. The Supreme Court held that one could be convicted of actually doing drugs (or possessing, distributing, manufacturing, etc.) but it was cruel and unusual to punish someone for being a drug addict.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The proper analogy is that it is illegal to commit murder, it is not illegal to be one who has committed murder.</p>
<p>It may be illegal, criminally or civilly, to enter into the united states without going through official channels, or it may be illegal, criminally or civilly, to remain in the country after expiration of temporary permission to be in the country. It is not, however, illegal to simply be an illegal immigrant, the crime is in the acting or failing to act, not in the status.</p>
<p>Generally it isn't that important a distinction, but it did come before the Supreme Court in terms of whether being addicted to drugs could constitute a crime. The Supreme Court held that one could be convicted of actually doing drugs (or possessing, distributing, manufacturing, etc.) but it was cruel and unusual to punish someone for being a drug addict.</p>
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		<title>By: J.W. Brewer</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176314</link>
		<dc:creator>J.W. Brewer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2012 21:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176314</guid>
		<description>The only potential difficulty with this approach is that it sounds like the court did its own corpus research the day before oral argument rather than taking it from Ms. Costello's brief (perhaps they revealed the findings at oral argument and the government's lawyer did not, thinking on his or her feet, have anything persuasive to rebut them with - the opinion does not say and I have not looked for a transcript).  Especially given that the strengths or weaknesses of this sort of corpus research are perhaps underappreciated by most lawyers and judges, it would be preferable for them to be subject to a little more tire-kicking, i.e. where one of the parties makes such a corpus-based claim in a brief, then the other party has an opportunity after a reasonable interval to file a brief which either addresses the issue (perhaps by talking about the oft-raised-on-LL  bogusness of raw google hit statistics or by showing that a differently structured search can yield usage data plausibly consistent with a different theory of the meaning of "harbor").    

This is, to be fair, a recurrent problem in adjudication with no simple answer - if the court spots a seemingly-winning argument not actually raised by any of the parties, should it pursue it or not?  This is especially a problem when you have a judge like Richard Posner who (and this is meant to be descriptive rather than snarky) really is smarter than 99.9% of the lawyers who will appear in front of him (to an extent that may cancel out the countervailing fact that the lawyers will have typically devoted more hours to thinking about the specific case because they typically do not have as many other cases they also need to deal with at the same time as does a busy appellate judge), but may like all of us not always be able to spot all of the potential weak spots in his own ideas.  The adversary system is not unlike peer review, even though those of us who participate in it for a living generally do not claim to be engaged in the disinterested search for truth.  Here, I suppose since Judge Manion was dissenting he did have a chance (if he were so inclined or equipped) to take issue with the corpus evidence, but did not do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only potential difficulty with this approach is that it sounds like the court did its own corpus research the day before oral argument rather than taking it from Ms. Costello's brief (perhaps they revealed the findings at oral argument and the government's lawyer did not, thinking on his or her feet, have anything persuasive to rebut them with - the opinion does not say and I have not looked for a transcript).  Especially given that the strengths or weaknesses of this sort of corpus research are perhaps underappreciated by most lawyers and judges, it would be preferable for them to be subject to a little more tire-kicking, i.e. where one of the parties makes such a corpus-based claim in a brief, then the other party has an opportunity after a reasonable interval to file a brief which either addresses the issue (perhaps by talking about the oft-raised-on-LL  bogusness of raw google hit statistics or by showing that a differently structured search can yield usage data plausibly consistent with a different theory of the meaning of "harbor").    </p>
<p>This is, to be fair, a recurrent problem in adjudication with no simple answer - if the court spots a seemingly-winning argument not actually raised by any of the parties, should it pursue it or not?  This is especially a problem when you have a judge like Richard Posner who (and this is meant to be descriptive rather than snarky) really is smarter than 99.9% of the lawyers who will appear in front of him (to an extent that may cancel out the countervailing fact that the lawyers will have typically devoted more hours to thinking about the specific case because they typically do not have as many other cases they also need to deal with at the same time as does a busy appellate judge), but may like all of us not always be able to spot all of the potential weak spots in his own ideas.  The adversary system is not unlike peer review, even though those of us who participate in it for a living generally do not claim to be engaged in the disinterested search for truth.  Here, I suppose since Judge Manion was dissenting he did have a chance (if he were so inclined or equipped) to take issue with the corpus evidence, but did not do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Weinberg</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176083</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Weinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 19:38:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176083</guid>
		<description>To put it yet a third way:  The phrase "illegal alien" is a woefully sloppy one.  An act can be illegal, but a person can't be -- we wouldn't describe a convicted murderer, born in the U.S., as an "illegal citizen."  Nor is it clear exactly what the category of "illegal alien" should cover -- just people who sneak over the border into the U.S. undetected? What if such a person shows that the law permits her to stay anyway, say, because she is fleeing political persecution? What about people who arrive legally, but overstay their authorization?  People whose stay is authorized, but who commit crimes that are legal grounds for deportation?

Imagine, in any event, that I arrive in the U.S. on a student visa, but fail to leave when I complete my studies.  I would be in the country without currently-valid authorization, and would be subject to being deported.  I would be an alien who "has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law" within the meaning of the statute Judge Posner was interpreting.  I would be an "illegal alien," if you will.  But I would have committed no crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To put it yet a third way:  The phrase "illegal alien" is a woefully sloppy one.  An act can be illegal, but a person can't be &#8212; we wouldn't describe a convicted murderer, born in the U.S., as an "illegal citizen."  Nor is it clear exactly what the category of "illegal alien" should cover &#8212; just people who sneak over the border into the U.S. undetected? What if such a person shows that the law permits her to stay anyway, say, because she is fleeing political persecution? What about people who arrive legally, but overstay their authorization?  People whose stay is authorized, but who commit crimes that are legal grounds for deportation?</p>
<p>Imagine, in any event, that I arrive in the U.S. on a student visa, but fail to leave when I complete my studies.  I would be in the country without currently-valid authorization, and would be subject to being deported.  I would be an alien who "has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law" within the meaning of the statute Judge Posner was interpreting.  I would be an "illegal alien," if you will.  But I would have committed no crime.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric P Smith</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176063</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric P Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 16:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176063</guid>
		<description>To take what Nick Lamb has said and put it another way: Some acts are illegal under Civil Law, and some acts are illegal under Criminal Law.  A crime is an act that is illegal under Criminal Law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To take what Nick Lamb has said and put it another way: Some acts are illegal under Civil Law, and some acts are illegal under Criminal Law.  A crime is an act that is illegal under Criminal Law.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Lamb</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176053</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Lamb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 13:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-176053</guid>
		<description>Laura, goodness no. What sort of world it would be if everything which is illegal was a crime!

To make something a crime you need a specific criminal statute which says that doing this particular thing shall be a crime, and what the penalties may be. Whereas a law makes lots of things illegal by specifying what is legal and ruling other possibilities out by implication.

For example, the law in my country requires that a landlord may only enter a tenant's home (even though it is their property) with adequate notice, explicit permission or in an emergency in order to prevent permanent damage (e.g. burst water pipes). But a landlord is not guilty of a crime if they, or their agents, break this law. Doing so is illegal, the tenant might be able to seek damages or a court order (and breaking the court order is _contempt_) but it is not itself a crime. If the tenant is present at the time, they could deal with the landlord like any other intruder, demanding they leave, using reasonable force to make them leave, or summoning a police officer. Again, the police officer won't arrest the landlord or agent, just force them to leave. If they become violent, _that_ is a crime and they might be arrested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laura, goodness no. What sort of world it would be if everything which is illegal was a crime!</p>
<p>To make something a crime you need a specific criminal statute which says that doing this particular thing shall be a crime, and what the penalties may be. Whereas a law makes lots of things illegal by specifying what is legal and ruling other possibilities out by implication.</p>
<p>For example, the law in my country requires that a landlord may only enter a tenant's home (even though it is their property) with adequate notice, explicit permission or in an emergency in order to prevent permanent damage (e.g. burst water pipes). But a landlord is not guilty of a crime if they, or their agents, break this law. Doing so is illegal, the tenant might be able to seek damages or a court order (and breaking the court order is _contempt_) but it is not itself a crime. If the tenant is present at the time, they could deal with the landlord like any other intruder, demanding they leave, using reasonable force to make them leave, or summoning a police officer. Again, the police officer won't arrest the landlord or agent, just force them to leave. If they become violent, _that_ is a crime and they might be arrested.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-175982</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 12:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-175982</guid>
		<description>Wait, what? "generally it is not a crime to be an illegal alien"? I know we're arguing word meanings here, but surely illegal things are, by definition, crimes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait, what? "generally it is not a crime to be an illegal alien"? I know we're arguing word meanings here, but surely illegal things are, by definition, crimes?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark F.</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-175958</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 03:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-175958</guid>
		<description>"Judge Posner" being Judge Richard Posner of the 7th Circuit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Judge Posner" being Judge Richard Posner of the 7th Circuit.</p>
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		<title>By: Dw</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-175913</link>
		<dc:creator>Dw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2012 17:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-175913</guid>
		<description>In addition to Romney, Linda Chavez and possibly Meg Whitman would be felons under the broad interpretation of this law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to Romney, Linda Chavez and possibly Meg Whitman would be felons under the broad interpretation of this law.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Friedman</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-175896</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-175896</guid>
		<description>Or for seven months.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or for seven months.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Friedman</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-175895</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3818#comment-175895</guid>
		<description>I would have expected that knowingly letting an illegal immigrant live with you for a year counted as "harboring", whether it made him safer or not.  Questioning whether the word applied would never have occurred to me.  I see &lt;a href="http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/harboring-a-fugitive/" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, though, that convicting someone of the Federal crime of harboring a fugitive requires proof "that the accused intended to prevent the fugitive' s discovery or arrest."

I'm not sure Judge Posner's reductios were a wise move from his point of view.  They look like suggestions that some people might be eager to take.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would have expected that knowingly letting an illegal immigrant live with you for a year counted as "harboring", whether it made him safer or not.  Questioning whether the word applied would never have occurred to me.  I see <a href="http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/harboring-a-fugitive/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, though, that convicting someone of the Federal crime of harboring a fugitive requires proof "that the accused intended to prevent the fugitive' s discovery or arrest."</p>
<p>I'm not sure Judge Posner's reductios were a wise move from his point of view.  They look like suggestions that some people might be eager to take.</p>
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