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	<title>Comments on: Thought experiments on language and thought</title>
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	<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797</link>
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		<title>By: Egal</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-174570</link>
		<dc:creator>Egal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Feb 2012 02:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-174570</guid>
		<description>Socio-Whorfian? Really, do we have to? Cringe.

&quot;All of this should lead us to worry that our hypothetical research subjects are being primed less by the grammar of their languages, and more by the cultural associations of their languages.&quot;

There is just no way to separate these, none. Take close dialects of the same language, one with the grammar variant, one without; those dialects will be associated with cultural variants in their native-spoken space. (The culture of Greek&#039; would be altered by the mere fact of its being spoken by self-aware experiments.) Take the same language, over a span of time in which it&#039;s dropped or added the variant; shockingly enough the culture of the people who speak it will also have changed over time. Take contemporaneous families bilingual in the same two languages? Well, you said it all above.

Whorfian hypotheses are to race and nationality as evolutionary psychology is to gender; the very few legitimate inquiries are all but drowned out by the endless studies searching for some pseudo-scientific confirmation of a broadly-held and often harmful political stereotype.

Women can&#039;t do math? Must be their birthright as women. Better get cracking on a study about estrogen and left-brain function. Greeks don&#039;t save money? Must be their language as Greeks. Let&#039;s see if we can prove that Greek causes financial irresponsibility. That&#039;ll be an easy and  convenient way to explain the Euro crisis that doesn&#039;t blame or prosecute anyone! (Except the Greeks, as a whole. Screw them, right?) Bonus: the study will boil down to a nice eight-word headline that&#039;ll justify a lot of racism and therefore get a lot of press. 

Yes, Whorfian hypotheses are tempting. Let&#039;s just say it: they would make the entire field of linguistics more important and relevant than all the other How People Think humanities fields combined. We would all get a lot of funding and everyone would have to listen to us. 

It&#039;s vitally important to recognize this temptation for what it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Socio-Whorfian? Really, do we have to? Cringe.</p>
<p>"All of this should lead us to worry that our hypothetical research subjects are being primed less by the grammar of their languages, and more by the cultural associations of their languages."</p>
<p>There is just no way to separate these, none. Take close dialects of the same language, one with the grammar variant, one without; those dialects will be associated with cultural variants in their native-spoken space. (The culture of Greek' would be altered by the mere fact of its being spoken by self-aware experiments.) Take the same language, over a span of time in which it's dropped or added the variant; shockingly enough the culture of the people who speak it will also have changed over time. Take contemporaneous families bilingual in the same two languages? Well, you said it all above.</p>
<p>Whorfian hypotheses are to race and nationality as evolutionary psychology is to gender; the very few legitimate inquiries are all but drowned out by the endless studies searching for some pseudo-scientific confirmation of a broadly-held and often harmful political stereotype.</p>
<p>Women can't do math? Must be their birthright as women. Better get cracking on a study about estrogen and left-brain function. Greeks don't save money? Must be their language as Greeks. Let's see if we can prove that Greek causes financial irresponsibility. That'll be an easy and  convenient way to explain the Euro crisis that doesn't blame or prosecute anyone! (Except the Greeks, as a whole. Screw them, right?) Bonus: the study will boil down to a nice eight-word headline that'll justify a lot of racism and therefore get a lot of press. </p>
<p>Yes, Whorfian hypotheses are tempting. Let's just say it: they would make the entire field of linguistics more important and relevant than all the other How People Think humanities fields combined. We would all get a lot of funding and everyone would have to listen to us. </p>
<p>It's vitally important to recognize this temptation for what it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Ponder Stibbons</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-174254</link>
		<dc:creator>Ponder Stibbons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2012 07:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-174254</guid>
		<description>@marie-lucie:

I doubt Chen&#039;s research was intended to apply to mostly monolingual families. On p. 12 of the paper he explicitly states that the seven countries that provided significant data were those for which there was significant intra-country variation in FTR, which means countries like Greece are ruled out. For at least two out of seven of the countries he used for his data (Malaysia and Singapore), monolingual families who speak Mandarin, Tamil or English (three out of the four languages studied in those two countries) are quite rare. Thus it seems likely that multilingual families were a significant proportion of the families studied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@marie-lucie:</p>
<p>I doubt Chen's research was intended to apply to mostly monolingual families. On p. 12 of the paper he explicitly states that the seven countries that provided significant data were those for which there was significant intra-country variation in FTR, which means countries like Greece are ruled out. For at least two out of seven of the countries he used for his data (Malaysia and Singapore), monolingual families who speak Mandarin, Tamil or English (three out of the four languages studied in those two countries) are quite rare. Thus it seems likely that multilingual families were a significant proportion of the families studied.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Hemmens</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173669</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Hemmens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173669</guid>
		<description>a) What about countries that have gone through spectacular changes of the level of financial prudence exercised by their inhabitants without speaking a different language? e.g. Ireland.

b) Will the Greeks have to learn a different language before they can get their act together?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a) What about countries that have gone through spectacular changes of the level of financial prudence exercised by their inhabitants without speaking a different language? e.g. Ireland.</p>
<p>b) Will the Greeks have to learn a different language before they can get their act together?</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Friedman</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173667</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173667</guid>
		<description>@Chris: I bet a nickel that nothing like the required data exists more than 100 or 150 years ago, unfortunately, and for most of the prudent behaviors studied by Chen, the time is probably less.  (Now someone will win my nickel and I&#039;ll learn something.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chris: I bet a nickel that nothing like the required data exists more than 100 or 150 years ago, unfortunately, and for most of the prudent behaviors studied by Chen, the time is probably less.  (Now someone will win my nickel and I'll learn something.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Friedman</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173646</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 21:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173646</guid>
		<description>@GeorgeW: I did get your sarcasm (and I&#039;m aware that my country has a lot of difficulty with fiscal responsibility).

@Levi Montogmery: Chen is arguing, I believe, that habits such as saving are statistically correlated with the way the future is talked about in people&#039;s language.  He doesn&#039;t say that not having a future tense makes everybody a saver.  In my post above, I oversimplified Chen&#039;s position drastically, and I apologize if that led you astray.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@GeorgeW: I did get your sarcasm (and I'm aware that my country has a lot of difficulty with fiscal responsibility).</p>
<p>@Levi Montogmery: Chen is arguing, I believe, that habits such as saving are statistically correlated with the way the future is talked about in people's language.  He doesn't say that not having a future tense makes everybody a saver.  In my post above, I oversimplified Chen's position drastically, and I apologize if that led you astray.</p>
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		<title>By: marie-lucie</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173641</link>
		<dc:creator>marie-lucie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173641</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Controlling for such variables ... misses some of the sociological reasons for why otherwise very similar families would choose to speak different languages in the first place—I suspect this choice is often driven by the extent to which people value the culture and practices of that particular linguistic community, and by the strength of personal connection they have to it.&lt;/i&gt;

This excerpt assumes that families have a choice in what language to speak.  This may be true in places with large numbers of bilinguals - as in Québec or some regions of the US - but not in places like Greece where the vast majority speaks only one language, the one they have always heard around them, and any acquaintance with a second language taught in school but not significantly used in the community is minimal.  I understood Chen&#039;s research to apply to mostly monolingual families.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Controlling for such variables &#8230; misses some of the sociological reasons for why otherwise very similar families would choose to speak different languages in the first place—I suspect this choice is often driven by the extent to which people value the culture and practices of that particular linguistic community, and by the strength of personal connection they have to it.</i></p>
<p>This excerpt assumes that families have a choice in what language to speak.  This may be true in places with large numbers of bilinguals &#8211; as in Québec or some regions of the US &#8211; but not in places like Greece where the vast majority speaks only one language, the one they have always heard around them, and any acquaintance with a second language taught in school but not significantly used in the community is minimal.  I understood Chen's research to apply to mostly monolingual families.</p>
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		<title>By: Levi Montgomery</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173611</link>
		<dc:creator>Levi Montgomery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173611</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just a novelist, not any sort of linguist at all, so don&#039;t throw stuff at me if I&#039;m crazy here, but surely any putatively causal link between obligatory future tense marking and future-oriented financial decisions could be ruled out fairly quickly. Given any sufficiently large number of families (and I must admit I&#039;m not certain why the reference is to families and not to individuals) who speak a given language and only the given language, I would be willing to bet that I could find a statistically significant spread of future-oriented financial decision-making.

In other words, surely there poor future-planners and good future-planners among the speakers of any single language. Rather than try to determine the relative merit of the theory&#039;s claims across two or more languages, why not examine its merit in one language?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm just a novelist, not any sort of linguist at all, so don't throw stuff at me if I'm crazy here, but surely any putatively causal link between obligatory future tense marking and future-oriented financial decisions could be ruled out fairly quickly. Given any sufficiently large number of families (and I must admit I'm not certain why the reference is to families and not to individuals) who speak a given language and only the given language, I would be willing to bet that I could find a statistically significant spread of future-oriented financial decision-making.</p>
<p>In other words, surely there poor future-planners and good future-planners among the speakers of any single language. Rather than try to determine the relative merit of the theory's claims across two or more languages, why not examine its merit in one language?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173591</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173591</guid>
		<description>I think Kenny&#039;s got it right. If we want to test this effect, we can use a language where overt future tense marking is optional, but not obligatory.

It also seems to me that this would test Chen&#039;s thesis directly, even though we would actually be looking at how specific instances of tense marking affect behavior rather than looking at how the obligatoriness of tense marking affects behavior. I haven&#039;t read the Chen paper in full, but assuming that Sedivy&#039;s explanation is accurate, then the mechanism by which obligatory tense marking affects behavior is through &quot;mental nudges&quot; induced by particular instances of the tense marking. Such nudges would presumably occur when future tense marking appears but is not obligatory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Kenny's got it right. If we want to test this effect, we can use a language where overt future tense marking is optional, but not obligatory.</p>
<p>It also seems to me that this would test Chen's thesis directly, even though we would actually be looking at how specific instances of tense marking affect behavior rather than looking at how the obligatoriness of tense marking affects behavior. I haven't read the Chen paper in full, but assuming that Sedivy's explanation is accurate, then the mechanism by which obligatory tense marking affects behavior is through "mental nudges" induced by particular instances of the tense marking. Such nudges would presumably occur when future tense marking appears but is not obligatory.</p>
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		<title>By: Jess Tauber</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173587</link>
		<dc:creator>Jess Tauber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:30:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173587</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t had time to look closely enough at arguments being made in this and other related posts with regard to Chen&#039;s claims. However, what I have read made me think of the issue of backgrounding of information in grammaticalization as a possible motivation for effects (assuming their truth, which I&#039;m not). Has anyone mentioned this?

Assuming some validity, hypothetically, wouldn&#039;t a search for languages that foreground the same sorts of information linguistically help to balance out the perspective?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven't had time to look closely enough at arguments being made in this and other related posts with regard to Chen's claims. However, what I have read made me think of the issue of backgrounding of information in grammaticalization as a possible motivation for effects (assuming their truth, which I'm not). Has anyone mentioned this?</p>
<p>Assuming some validity, hypothetically, wouldn't a search for languages that foreground the same sorts of information linguistically help to balance out the perspective?</p>
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		<title>By: Keith M Ellis</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173486</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith M Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 01:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173486</guid>
		<description>Your &quot;more competitively if they&#039;re in a room with a briefcase&quot; link is incomplete.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your "more competitively if they're in a room with a briefcase" link is incomplete.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Martin</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173481</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 01:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173481</guid>
		<description>Great post! Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post! Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: GeorgeW</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173480</link>
		<dc:creator>GeorgeW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 01:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173480</guid>
		<description>@Jerry Friedman: Whoops, then the condition should be to ban the future-tense marker.  

(I hope the sarcasm is obvious).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jerry Friedman: Whoops, then the condition should be to ban the future-tense marker.  </p>
<p>(I hope the sarcasm is obvious).</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Friedman</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173472</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173472</guid>
		<description>@GeorgeW: I think you have it backwards.  According to Keith Chen, the people who believe in the future are the ones who don&#039;t have a future-tense marker; they see the future as present.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@GeorgeW: I think you have it backwards.  According to Keith Chen, the people who believe in the future are the ones who don't have a future-tense marker; they see the future as present.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Sedivy</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173469</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Sedivy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173469</guid>
		<description>Indeed, the problematic aspects of definitively categorizing languages as either obligatorily marking future tense or not has come up several times in the LL discussions—as Kenny points out, in an experimental setting, the presence/absence of a future tense marker could be controlled for rather easily in an experimental setting in which subjects read the materials.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, the problematic aspects of definitively categorizing languages as either obligatorily marking future tense or not has come up several times in the LL discussions—as Kenny points out, in an experimental setting, the presence/absence of a future tense marker could be controlled for rather easily in an experimental setting in which subjects read the materials.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny Easwaran</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173465</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Easwaran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3797#comment-173465</guid>
		<description>One other possible way to structure such an experiment would be to use a language like English in which the future tense is not obligatorily marked, and then have the two experimental groups read descriptions of some future event, with one group reading a description that uses &quot;will&quot; and &quot;going to&quot; everywhere, and one group reading a description that avoids these markers in every case.  Of course, this would test a subtly different claim - it would be testing the claim that particular instances of tense marking affect one&#039;s saving behavior, rather than the claim that languages with obligatory tense marking affect one&#039;s saving behavior differently from languages in which it is optional (I think that was the distinction being looked at?)  But this actually seems like a relatively easy experiment to run, at least for those people who (unlike me) are used to running these sorts of experiments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other possible way to structure such an experiment would be to use a language like English in which the future tense is not obligatorily marked, and then have the two experimental groups read descriptions of some future event, with one group reading a description that uses "will" and "going to" everywhere, and one group reading a description that avoids these markers in every case.  Of course, this would test a subtly different claim &#8211; it would be testing the claim that particular instances of tense marking affect one's saving behavior, rather than the claim that languages with obligatory tense marking affect one's saving behavior differently from languages in which it is optional (I think that was the distinction being looked at?)  But this actually seems like a relatively easy experiment to run, at least for those people who (unlike me) are used to running these sorts of experiments.</p>
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