Comments on: Cultural diffusion and the Whorfian hypothesis http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764 Sun, 19 May 2013 01:17:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: Does Language Influence Our Propensity to Save? | In Sight http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-362876 Does Language Influence Our Propensity to Save? | In Sight Sun, 07 Apr 2013 16:19:39 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-362876 [...] Liberman of the University of Pennsylvania highlights the dangers of running statistics on factors that may very well not be completely independent. He [...] […] Liberman of the University of Pennsylvania highlights the dangers of running statistics on factors that may very well not be completely independent. He […]

]]> By: Whorfian economics reconsidered: Why future tense? | Replicated Typo http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-347280 Whorfian economics reconsidered: Why future tense? | Replicated Typo Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:55:44 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-347280 [...] The hypothesis has been criticised by several linguists, notably on language log (and a great model post by Mark Liberman), where Chen gave a response. The data has been criticised (e.g. English is marked as ‘strong [...] […] The hypothesis has been criticised by several linguists, notably on language log (and a great model post by Mark Liberman), where Chen gave a response. The data has been criticised (e.g. English is marked as 'strong […]

]]> By: Saving for a rainy day: Keith Chen on language that forecasts weather — and behavior | Krantenkoppen Tech http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-345145 Saving for a rainy day: Keith Chen on language that forecasts weather — and behavior | Krantenkoppen Tech Tue, 19 Feb 2013 16:09:29 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-345145 [...] skeptical of the work. Their concerns are concisely explained in two well-thought out posts (here and here) by the linguists Mark Liberman and Goeffrey Pullum on the blog they founded, Language [...] […] skeptical of the work. Their concerns are concisely explained in two well-thought out posts (here and here) by the linguists Mark Liberman and Goeffrey Pullum on the blog they founded, Language […]

]]> By: Paper Talk: Language and Saving Behavior – REVISITED! « epicnomics http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-293256 Paper Talk: Language and Saving Behavior – REVISITED! « epicnomics Fri, 23 Nov 2012 07:04:22 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-293256 [...] Language Log author created a post pointing out the idea that correlation does not equal causation (along with some very cool visuals to aid his point.) This argument is a more legitimate one, [...] […] Language Log author created a post pointing out the idea that correlation does not equal causation (along with some very cool visuals to aid his point.) This argument is a more legitimate one, […]

]]> By: David Eddyshaw http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170907 David Eddyshaw Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:53:01 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170907 There are some odd things in Chen's lists of languages as being "strong" or "weak" in their future marking. Dutch is "weak", but Afrikaans is "strong." All that English and Bantu influence? Maybe, I suppose. Amharic is "weak", but Tigrinya is "strong." Dunno but seems fishy. Japanese is "weak", but the structurally very similar Korean is "strong." (Presumably explains why South Korea is such a basket case economically too, compared with the North where the whole verbal system must be different, I guess.) I do know that Korean is well able to use "present" forms with future reference. Hard to see the relevance of Irish being "strong." Welsh, by the way used not to have a particular future form but the modern language uses the old present as a futuales was something to do with the loss of our old heavy industry, when all along it was our calamitous decision to invent a future tense. Admittedly, picking holes like this, though fun, doesn't mean that Chen's whole edifice is wrong, nor do the easily found individual counterexamples prove that there can't be a correlation in general. It does seem worrying that wherever I'm in a position to check, his facts seem pretty shaky. Doesn't matter how impressive the maths is if the basic data are unreliable. And really, if you are going to maintain that one language in actual use marks the future distinctively significantly more often than another, a glance at a couple of grammars isn't going to give you the answer, especially the sort of fairly basic grammars in his list of references. There are some odd things in Chen's lists of languages as being "strong" or "weak" in their future marking.

Dutch is "weak", but Afrikaans is "strong." All that English and Bantu influence? Maybe, I suppose.
Amharic is "weak", but Tigrinya is "strong." Dunno but seems fishy.
Japanese is "weak", but the structurally very similar Korean is "strong." (Presumably explains why South Korea is such a basket case economically too, compared with the North where the whole verbal system must be different, I guess.) I do know that Korean is well able to use "present" forms with future reference.

Hard to see the relevance of Irish being "strong." Welsh, by the way used not to have a particular future form but the modern language uses the old present as a futuales was something to do with the loss of our old heavy industry, when all along it was our calamitous decision to invent a future tense.

Admittedly, picking holes like this, though fun, doesn't mean that Chen's whole edifice is wrong, nor do the easily found individual counterexamples prove that there can't be a correlation in general. It does seem worrying that wherever I'm in a position to check, his facts seem pretty shaky. Doesn't matter how impressive the maths is if the basic data are unreliable. And really, if you are going to maintain that one language in actual use marks the future distinctively significantly more often than another, a glance at a couple of grammars isn't going to give you the answer, especially the sort of fairly basic grammars in his list of references.

]]> By: Östen Dahl http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170904 Östen Dahl Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:46:23 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170904 I would like to note that I had a fairly extensive correspondence with Chen, who actually invited me to collaborate with him, which I declined. I did try quite hard to dissuade him from the idea, for reasons partly coinciding with what Geoff and Mark have written here. I also pointed out that his diagrams looked more or less equally nice with "rounded front vowels" replacing "weak FTR". The problem is that the countries in previously Protestant, nowadays secularized NW Europe, where both these phenomena are well represented, also contribute heavily to the countries where people are best at saving. I would like to note that I had a fairly extensive correspondence with Chen, who actually invited me to collaborate with him, which I declined. I did try quite hard to dissuade him from the idea, for reasons partly coinciding with what Geoff and Mark have written here. I also pointed out that his diagrams looked more or less equally nice with "rounded front vowels" replacing "weak FTR". The problem is that the countries in previously Protestant, nowadays secularized NW Europe, where both these phenomena are well represented, also contribute heavily to the countries where people are best at saving.

]]> By: David Eddyshaw http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170720 David Eddyshaw Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:38:02 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170720 I well remember, though I unfortunately have long since lost the reference, an account of a (one hopes) unusually dense British colonial officer in southern China at the beginning of the last century complaining about the fecklessness of the locals. Doubtless the descendents of these hopeless cases in Hong Kong (who could probably buy out the descendents of the gormless Brit several times over) achieved their current position by dropping the elaborate tense system characteristic of Chinese until the last half century? I well remember, though I unfortunately have long since lost the reference, an account of a (one hopes) unusually dense British colonial officer in southern China at the beginning of the last century complaining about the fecklessness of the locals. Doubtless the descendents of these hopeless cases in Hong Kong (who could probably buy out the descendents of the gormless Brit several times over) achieved their current position by dropping the elaborate tense system characteristic of Chinese until the last half century?

]]> By: meesher http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170714 meesher Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:07:48 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170714 I'm eager to read Mr Chen's analysis of the data on skin pigmentation and GDP. For people who want to discount the "soft" social sciences and rely solely on mathematical models, it must be frustrating when they bump up against the vast, largely undocumented history of inter-cultural interactions that would have to be sorted through just to arrive at a conclusion on causality between two features. I'm eager to read Mr Chen's analysis of the data on skin pigmentation and GDP.
For people who want to discount the "soft" social sciences and rely solely on mathematical models, it must be frustrating when they bump up against the vast, largely undocumented history of inter-cultural interactions that would have to be sorted through just to arrive at a conclusion on causality between two features.

]]> By: David Eddyshaw http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170704 David Eddyshaw Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:44:37 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170704 It's not encouraging that the paper gets the facts wrong straight away with English. Chen says, correctly as far as it goes, that you can't say "I go to a seminar" with reference to later today; but of course you might perfectly well say "I'm going to a seminar"; indeed I would have thought that is considerably more likely than "I'll go to a seminar" if I'm explaining why I can't attend a meeting later on; in fact tthat would imply (for me) that you were actually deliberately choosing that option, rather than having unfortunately landed yourself in a situation where you had a prior commitment. It would be a snub! Of course, you can't say "I go to a seminar" to describe what you're currently doing, either, as it corresponds only to the habitual sense of the present tense of a language like German which doesn't obligatorily distinguish the two. Maybe languages that make compulsory aspect distictions are also the preserve of the feckless ... It's not encouraging that the paper gets the facts wrong straight away with English. Chen says, correctly as far as it goes, that you can't say

"I go to a seminar" with reference to later today; but of course you might perfectly well say

"I'm going to a seminar"; indeed I would have thought that is considerably more likely than "I'll go to a seminar" if I'm explaining why I can't attend a meeting later on; in fact tthat would imply (for me) that you were actually deliberately choosing that option, rather than having unfortunately landed yourself in a situation where you had a prior commitment. It would be a snub!

Of course, you can't say "I go to a seminar" to describe what you're currently doing, either, as it corresponds only to the habitual sense of the present tense of a language like German which doesn't obligatorily distinguish the two. Maybe languages that make compulsory aspect distictions are also the preserve of the feckless …

]]> By: Glen Gordon http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170676 Glen Gordon Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:41:01 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170676 This sounds like an over-extension of the idea that language styles are influenced by personality styles. Not entirely crazy to me but certainly this connection can go overboard. It seems popular enough in the corporate world when we're advised to avoid passives lest we're mistaken by simplistic interviewers as passives in our daily lives. Hey, here's a thought. Maybe active people use passives too. I know! Crazy, right?? But hey who am I but an iconoclastic pleb to think such unpopular things. This sounds like an over-extension of the idea that language styles are influenced by personality styles. Not entirely crazy to me but certainly this connection can go overboard.

It seems popular enough in the corporate world when we're advised to avoid passives lest we're mistaken by simplistic interviewers as passives in our daily lives. Hey, here's a thought. Maybe active people use passives too. I know! Crazy, right?? But hey who am I but an iconoclastic pleb to think such unpopular things.

]]> By: Tom W http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170616 Tom W Mon, 13 Feb 2012 14:38:00 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170616 Chen opens up fascinating insights into the language of squirrels, who we now know hide their acorns because they have no future tense! But even if Whorfianism is true, why would the linguistic structure that makes people provide for the future have to do with the future tense? What adult speaker of any language can't conceive of tomorrow or doesn't think that it will dawn? Wouldn't being provident more likely involve the conditional? It's more an ability to think in terms of evenualities, not futurities, that prompts one to provide for the future. Not that anyone with an understanding of the complexity of the brain, let alone the compexity of cultural diffusison that you explicate so well, should expect even that hypothesis to pan out. Chen opens up fascinating insights into the language of squirrels, who we now know hide their acorns because they have no future tense! But even if Whorfianism is true, why would the linguistic structure that makes people provide for the future have to do with the future tense? What adult speaker of any language can't conceive of tomorrow or doesn't think that it will dawn? Wouldn't being provident more likely involve the conditional? It's more an ability to think in terms of evenualities, not futurities, that prompts one to provide for the future. Not that anyone with an understanding of the complexity of the brain, let alone the compexity of cultural diffusison that you explicate so well, should expect even that hypothesis to pan out.

]]> By: MattF http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170598 MattF Mon, 13 Feb 2012 13:31:40 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170598 Really interesting. I'll note that red correlation distribution curve suggests a test for significant deviation from randomness. Really interesting. I'll note that red correlation distribution curve suggests a test for significant deviation from randomness.

]]> By: Chad Nilep http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170409 Chad Nilep Mon, 13 Feb 2012 04:52:36 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170409 "But when the observations... come from a geographical pattern with areal spread, then it may be a bit like doing a drug trial where maybe 2/3 of the patients who got the drug also happen to be pregnant women, whereas half of those who didn't also happen to be men over the age of 70." I nominate this sentence for simile of the week. Matt Taibbi, eat your heart out. "But when the observations… come from a geographical pattern with areal spread, then it may be a bit like doing a drug trial where maybe 2/3 of the patients who got the drug also happen to be pregnant women, whereas half of those who didn't also happen to be men over the age of 70."

I nominate this sentence for simile of the week. Matt Taibbi, eat your heart out.

]]> By: phspaelti http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170349 phspaelti Mon, 13 Feb 2012 01:53:23 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170349 A question that I had was that in such research people are mapping linguistic features -- which are typically categorical -- onto features which are typically gradient, and in fact multi-dimensional. So "has future tense" is binary, while "plans for the future" has many dimensions all of which are highly gradient ("is obese", "saves money", "builds sturdily", etc.). If on top of this the categorical linguistic feature is misanalyzed, then one is mapping an inconsistent single variable onto a multicolored map. Obviously confirmation will be in the eye of the beholder. <font color="#FF0000">[(myl) The boolean nature of the independent variable isn't in itself a problem -- in principle a yes/no variable might have considerable predictive power. In a drug trial, for example, the independent variable is drug or no drug, and there may be several gradient dependent variables measuring the outcomes. Nor is noise necessarily a problem -- it just means you need more data to see the signal, as long as the noise is unbiased relative to the dependent variables of interest. But when the observations -- whether cardinal or ordinal or boolean -- come from a geographical pattern with areal spread, then it may be a bit like doing a drug trial where maybe 2/3 of the patients who got the drug also happen to be pregnant women, whereas half of those who didn't also happen to be men over the age of 70.]</font> A question that I had was that in such research people are mapping linguistic features — which are typically categorical — onto features which are typically gradient, and in fact multi-dimensional. So "has future tense" is binary, while "plans for the future" has many dimensions all of which are highly gradient ("is obese", "saves money", "builds sturdily", etc.). If on top of this the categorical linguistic feature is misanalyzed, then one is mapping an inconsistent single variable onto a multicolored map. Obviously confirmation will be in the eye of the beholder.

[(myl) The boolean nature of the independent variable isn't in itself a problem — in principle a yes/no variable might have considerable predictive power. In a drug trial, for example, the independent variable is drug or no drug, and there may be several gradient dependent variables measuring the outcomes. Nor is noise necessarily a problem — it just means you need more data to see the signal, as long as the noise is unbiased relative to the dependent variables of interest.

But when the observations — whether cardinal or ordinal or boolean — come from a geographical pattern with areal spread, then it may be a bit like doing a drug trial where maybe 2/3 of the patients who got the drug also happen to be pregnant women, whereas half of those who didn't also happen to be men over the age of 70.]

]]> By: GeorgeW http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170335 GeorgeW Sun, 12 Feb 2012 23:44:00 +0000 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3764#comment-170335 If we would all just speak Gulf Arabic, the energy crisis would be solved. If we would all just speak Gulf Arabic, the energy crisis would be solved.

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