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	<title>Comments on: Gov. Cuomo and our poor monkey brains</title>
	<atom:link href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?feed=rss2&#038;p=2918" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 20:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Joke</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-110637</link>
		<dc:creator>Joke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-110637</guid>
		<description>I don't see any problem with the use of "... cannot be underestimated" to mean "we should not underestimate ...".

Definition 1.d. at M-W.com is "be permitted by conscience or feeling to "

Thus I re-work Cuomo's statement as:
"I also saw up close and personal the suffering that our people are facing and the devastating toll that this economy has taken. And it [is not permitted by conscience or feeling to be] underestimated."

It seems to me a common usage. Much like "Behavior x cannot be allowed".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't see any problem with the use of "&#8230; cannot be underestimated" to mean "we should not underestimate &#8230;".</p>
<p>Definition 1.d. at M-W.com is "be permitted by conscience or feeling to "</p>
<p>Thus I re-work Cuomo's statement as:<br />
"I also saw up close and personal the suffering that our people are facing and the devastating toll that this economy has taken. And it [is not permitted by conscience or feeling to be] underestimated."</p>
<p>It seems to me a common usage. Much like "Behavior x cannot be allowed".</p>
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		<title>By: Mark P</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-105261</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-105261</guid>
		<description>I heard a use of "cannot underestimate" where the "must not underestimate" explanation is at least plausible, and probably likely. It was a TV show on one of the nature channels about swimming with sharks. The narrator said the danger "can't be underestimated" in a context in which it seemed clear that he meant "should not be underestimated" or "must not be underestimated." A transcript might be useful, but I'm not sure I can find one, even if I can figure out which channel it was on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard a use of "cannot underestimate" where the "must not underestimate" explanation is at least plausible, and probably likely. It was a TV show on one of the nature channels about swimming with sharks. The narrator said the danger "can't be underestimated" in a context in which it seemed clear that he meant "should not be underestimated" or "must not be underestimated." A transcript might be useful, but I'm not sure I can find one, even if I can figure out which channel it was on.</p>
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		<title>By: Boris</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-105175</link>
		<dc:creator>Boris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 18:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-105175</guid>
		<description>If something cannot be underestimated, does that mean it is often misunderestimated? In fact, I propose we use the word from now on lest someone points out that English has no single word for "cannot be underestimated".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If something cannot be underestimated, does that mean it is often misunderestimated? In fact, I propose we use the word from now on lest someone points out that English has no single word for "cannot be underestimated".</p>
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		<title>By: Skullturf Q. Beavispants</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-105057</link>
		<dc:creator>Skullturf Q. Beavispants</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 02:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-105057</guid>
		<description>Sometimes we use "cannot" to mean that something's impossible.

Sometimes we use "cannot" in a quasi "moral" sense, to mean something like "should not" or "must not" or "ought not to."

And -- I think it's clear, as others have stated -- sometimes we use "cannot" to mean, essentially, that something's not desirable.  I agree with others that "cannot underestimate" is a kind of shorthand for something like "cannot underestimate without inviting bad consequences."

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes, though.  I get the feeling that maybe not everyone shares my intuition about "cannot" and so the word might effectively have a different meaning for me than for you.

I'm like boynamedsue above and not like Ellen K.  For me, the sentence "Men can't treat women that way" is an utterly unremarkable way of saying "It's bad for men to treat women that way."  I wouldn't interpret it as "It's impossible for men to treat women that way."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes we use "cannot" to mean that something's impossible.</p>
<p>Sometimes we use "cannot" in a quasi "moral" sense, to mean something like "should not" or "must not" or "ought not to."</p>
<p>And &#8212; I think it's clear, as others have stated &#8212; sometimes we use "cannot" to mean, essentially, that something's not desirable.  I agree with others that "cannot underestimate" is a kind of shorthand for something like "cannot underestimate without inviting bad consequences."</p>
<p>Maybe we're talking at cross purposes, though.  I get the feeling that maybe not everyone shares my intuition about "cannot" and so the word might effectively have a different meaning for me than for you.</p>
<p>I'm like boynamedsue above and not like Ellen K.  For me, the sentence "Men can't treat women that way" is an utterly unremarkable way of saying "It's bad for men to treat women that way."  I wouldn't interpret it as "It's impossible for men to treat women that way."</p>
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		<title>By: boynamedsue</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-105010</link>
		<dc:creator>boynamedsue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jan 2011 22:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-105010</guid>
		<description>[(myl) "Please, everybody, if you're interested in this subject, try to learn a bit about the different kinds of modality, their complex alignment with the various ways of expressing modality in English, and the various modal logics that help keep straight how they interact with negation, with other operators, and with each other."

I don't think this question needs a massive investigation of modal logic. For some speakers of English "Must Not" can be replaced with "Can not" in all the former's range (though the reverse is obviously not true). This is simply a matter of usage, and after reading the older post you linked, the modal logic seems to confuse rather than clarify the issue. 

If English speakers consider "must not" to be replaceable with "can not" then the sentence "The importance of logic can't be underestimated" is POSSIBLY logical. Of course, it may not be, as the speaker may understand the "can't" in his utterance to be related to possibility not to obligation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[(myl) "Please, everybody, if you're interested in this subject, try to learn a bit about the different kinds of modality, their complex alignment with the various ways of expressing modality in English, and the various modal logics that help keep straight how they interact with negation, with other operators, and with each other."</p>
<p>I don't think this question needs a massive investigation of modal logic. For some speakers of English "Must Not" can be replaced with "Can not" in all the former's range (though the reverse is obviously not true). This is simply a matter of usage, and after reading the older post you linked, the modal logic seems to confuse rather than clarify the issue. </p>
<p>If English speakers consider "must not" to be replaceable with "can not" then the sentence "The importance of logic can't be underestimated" is POSSIBLY logical. Of course, it may not be, as the speaker may understand the "can't" in his utterance to be related to possibility not to obligation.</p>
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		<title>By: boynamedsue</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104990</link>
		<dc:creator>boynamedsue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104990</guid>
		<description>It might be variation. I find "Men can't treat women that way." to be stronger than "Men shouldn't treat women that way", the should intimates that not treating women that way would be better, but the can't states absolute refusal to accept the treatment, similar to "must not", but from a person who has no direct authority on the situation.

But I reckon this "error" comes from people initially using "can't" in this way, and the expression has since spread, rather than being an inherent failure in the brain's logic circuits. The presence of the can't makes it stronger than shouldn't, and everybody understands what is meant so... well, no big problem?

Especially when we compare with Spanish frases like "hasta que no vuelvas" ("until you don't return")

&lt;font color="#FF0000"&gt;[(myl) Please, everybody,  if you're interested in this subject, try to learn a bit about the different kinds of modality, their complex alignment with the various ways of expressing modality in English, and the various modal logics that help keep straight how they interact with negation, with other operators, and with each other. This topic is somewhat complicated, and if you try to learn (at least some of) &lt;a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-modal/" rel="nofollow"&gt;what a few hundred years of logicians and semanticists&lt;/a&gt; have &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic" rel="nofollow"&gt;figured out about it&lt;/a&gt;, you're likely to get confused. (I don't mean to suggest that the logicians and linguistic semanticists have it all figured out, or that observations from outsiders are never useful; but the fact is that there's a real body of knowledge here, and trying to sort out the phenomena without taking account of it is like trying to make sense of orbital mechanics purely on the basis of common sense.)]&lt;/font&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It might be variation. I find "Men can't treat women that way." to be stronger than "Men shouldn't treat women that way", the should intimates that not treating women that way would be better, but the can't states absolute refusal to accept the treatment, similar to "must not", but from a person who has no direct authority on the situation.</p>
<p>But I reckon this "error" comes from people initially using "can't" in this way, and the expression has since spread, rather than being an inherent failure in the brain's logic circuits. The presence of the can't makes it stronger than shouldn't, and everybody understands what is meant so&#8230; well, no big problem?</p>
<p>Especially when we compare with Spanish frases like "hasta que no vuelvas" ("until you don't return")</p>
<p><font color="#FF0000">[(myl) Please, everybody,  if you're interested in this subject, try to learn a bit about the different kinds of modality, their complex alignment with the various ways of expressing modality in English, and the various modal logics that help keep straight how they interact with negation, with other operators, and with each other. This topic is somewhat complicated, and if you try to learn (at least some of) <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-modal/" rel="nofollow">what a few hundred years of logicians and semanticists</a> have <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic" rel="nofollow">figured out about it</a>, you're likely to get confused. (I don't mean to suggest that the logicians and linguistic semanticists have it all figured out, or that observations from outsiders are never useful; but the fact is that there's a real body of knowledge here, and trying to sort out the phenomena without taking account of it is like trying to make sense of orbital mechanics purely on the basis of common sense.)]</font></p>
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		<title>By: Ellen K.</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104984</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jan 2011 19:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104984</guid>
		<description>Perhaps there's some variation?  Presumably, "Men can't treat women that way", when men do treat women that way but shouldn't, really does work for Boynamedsue.  For me, it doesn't.  I can say "You can't treat women that way".  But when the statement is less direct -- talking about people instead of to them -- "can't" doesn't work. It has to be "Men shouldn't treat women that way".  Saying "Men can't treat women that way" sounds like it's talking about ability.

"Can't" does not equal, "impossible to be right", for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps there's some variation?  Presumably, "Men can't treat women that way", when men do treat women that way but shouldn't, really does work for Boynamedsue.  For me, it doesn't.  I can say "You can't treat women that way".  But when the statement is less direct &#8212; talking about people instead of to them &#8212; "can't" doesn't work. It has to be "Men shouldn't treat women that way".  Saying "Men can't treat women that way" sounds like it's talking about ability.</p>
<p>"Can't" does not equal, "impossible to be right", for me.</p>
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		<title>By: boynamedsue</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104979</link>
		<dc:creator>boynamedsue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jan 2011 18:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104979</guid>
		<description>"Can't be underestimated" is right surely. Given can't can imply a value judgement.

"Men can't treat women that way."
=
"It is impossible for men to be right when they treat women that way."

"The role of Polish Airmen in the RAF can't be underestimated."
=
"It is impossible to be right when one underestimates the role of Polish airmen in the RAF."


This is actually a case of grammatically logical phrase being taken on as a set expression free of actual analytic content. The only poor monkey brains here belong to the linguists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Can't be underestimated" is right surely. Given can't can imply a value judgement.</p>
<p>"Men can't treat women that way."<br />
=<br />
"It is impossible for men to be right when they treat women that way."</p>
<p>"The role of Polish Airmen in the RAF can't be underestimated."<br />
=<br />
"It is impossible to be right when one underestimates the role of Polish airmen in the RAF."</p>
<p>This is actually a case of grammatically logical phrase being taken on as a set expression free of actual analytic content. The only poor monkey brains here belong to the linguists.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexey</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104912</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104912</guid>
		<description>Ryan,
I think the same sort of confusion can occur with all transitive verbs. However I've _seen_ such mistakes mostly (or probably only) with недооценить/недооценивать likely because of the multiple negation problem. Another examples don't come into my mind at the moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan,<br />
I think the same sort of confusion can occur with all transitive verbs. However I've _seen_ such mistakes mostly (or probably only) with недооценить/недооценивать likely because of the multiple negation problem. Another examples don't come into my mind at the moment.</p>
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		<title>By: Horsecow</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104874</link>
		<dc:creator>Horsecow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jan 2011 03:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104874</guid>
		<description>This discussion reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons:
WARDEN: How's your back?
HOMER: I can't complain. (points to sign reading "no complaining")
WARDEN: Oh, that's just for the prisoners.
HOMER: Ohhhh... My back hurts so much... And my job's so unfulfilling.

The "can't" in the common phrase "can't complain" seems similar to the "can't" in "can't be underestimated".  Everyone understands it's not literally impossible to do x, it's just unwise/poor form.  Is this really a confusing usage?

&lt;font color="#FF0000"&gt;[(myl) If this idea interests you, please see "&lt;a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=813" rel="nofollow"&gt;'Cannot underestimate' = 'must not underestimate'&lt;/a&gt;", 11/6/2008, linked and discussed above, where your suggestion (which has also been made by others) is considered in detail and at  length.]&lt;/font&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This discussion reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons:<br />
WARDEN: How's your back?<br />
HOMER: I can't complain. (points to sign reading "no complaining")<br />
WARDEN: Oh, that's just for the prisoners.<br />
HOMER: Ohhhh&#8230; My back hurts so much&#8230; And my job's so unfulfilling.</p>
<p>The "can't" in the common phrase "can't complain" seems similar to the "can't" in "can't be underestimated".  Everyone understands it's not literally impossible to do x, it's just unwise/poor form.  Is this really a confusing usage?</p>
<p><font color="#FF0000">[(myl) If this idea interests you, please see "<a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=813" rel="nofollow">'Cannot underestimate' = 'must not underestimate'</a>", 11/6/2008, linked and discussed above, where your suggestion (which has also been made by others) is considered in detail and at  length.]</font></p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104825</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jan 2011 23:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104825</guid>
		<description>Alexey,

I know that нельзя is either "can't" or "shouldn't" based on context, but what I'm trying to ask is if you've seen similar confusion between perfective and imperfective with other verbs, or if it's just недооценить/недооценивать.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alexey,</p>
<p>I know that нельзя is either "can't" or "shouldn't" based on context, but what I'm trying to ask is if you've seen similar confusion between perfective and imperfective with other verbs, or if it's just недооценить/недооценивать.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Parvaz</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104811</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Parvaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104811</guid>
		<description>Speaking on behalf of Jews -- masters of negativity -- everywhere, I think we use these overclocked negatives to mean exactly what they do mean. Hence the old saw that Arafat (or "The Arabs" or... okay, this is a whole 'nother topic. Just roll with it) "Never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Ooh Eee, Ooh ah ah...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking on behalf of Jews &#8212; masters of negativity &#8212; everywhere, I think we use these overclocked negatives to mean exactly what they do mean. Hence the old saw that Arafat (or "The Arabs" or&#8230; okay, this is a whole 'nother topic. Just roll with it) "Never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."</p>
<p>Ooh Eee, Ooh ah ah&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Alexey</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104810</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104810</guid>
		<description>Ryan,
the confusion actually comes from the word "нельзя" which can mean "cannot", "should not", "better not to" etc depending on the context. You can check this link: http://lingvo.yandex.ru/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B7%D1%8F/%D0%BF%D0%BE-%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8/
Here context is made by modality of the verbs and it makes a difference. If we consider for example phrases "нельзя разрушить" and "нельзя разрушать" the first will mean "it's impossible to destroy (smth)" and the second will mean "it's not allowed to destroy (smth)".
If we get back to "estimation" example we'll see: "нельзя недооценить" considers the physical possibility and the exact translation is "cannot be underestimated". On the other hand "нельзя недооценивать" actually means "не стоит недооценивать" which can be translated as "it's not recommended to underestimate (smth) because it can cost you a lot".

My explanation could be rough (or even wrong) since I'm not a linguist, just a native speaker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan,<br />
the confusion actually comes from the word "нельзя" which can mean "cannot", "should not", "better not to" etc depending on the context. You can check this link: <a href="http://lingvo.yandex.ru/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B7%D1%8F/%D0%BF%D0%BE-%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8/" rel="nofollow">http://lingvo.yandex.ru/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B7%D1%8F/%D0%BF%D0%BE-%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8/</a><br />
Here context is made by modality of the verbs and it makes a difference. If we consider for example phrases "нельзя разрушить" and "нельзя разрушать" the first will mean "it's impossible to destroy (smth)" and the second will mean "it's not allowed to destroy (smth)".<br />
If we get back to "estimation" example we'll see: "нельзя недооценить" considers the physical possibility and the exact translation is "cannot be underestimated". On the other hand "нельзя недооценивать" actually means "не стоит недооценивать" which can be translated as "it's not recommended to underestimate (smth) because it can cost you a lot".</p>
<p>My explanation could be rough (or even wrong) since I'm not a linguist, just a native speaker.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104801</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104801</guid>
		<description>Alexey,

Is it possible that the use of "нельзя недооценить" for "нельзя недооценивать" has something to do with speakers deciding to mark the semantics of aspect and modality differently? Or do you only see this confusion for this pair of verbs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alexey,</p>
<p>Is it possible that the use of "нельзя недооценить" for "нельзя недооценивать" has something to do with speakers deciding to mark the semantics of aspect and modality differently? Or do you only see this confusion for this pair of verbs?</p>
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		<title>By: MJ</title>
		<link>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104795</link>
		<dc:creator>MJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2918#comment-104795</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that explanation. I specifically didn't know that there's no exact correlation between the corpus I can access by clicking on those year ranges below the graph and the percentages shown in the graph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that explanation. I specifically didn't know that there's no exact correlation between the corpus I can access by clicking on those year ranges below the graph and the percentages shown in the graph.</p>
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